European City-states galore

Part question, part idle wondering is the source of this thread.

Why was small independent citystate republics so prevelent in northern Italy, which 'at best' paid lip service to HRE, if they weren't completely ignoring any thought of having some liege over them, and half-indepedent states in Germany (republics, archbishopies and tiny city-sized duchies such as Luxenbourg alike), under the de jure leadership of the Emperor), while nearly non-existing in the rest of Europe?

How to make this even more prevelent in the rest of europe, with similar city states in France and Netherlands and the like, and what changes would this cause to the European history in terms of expansion and 'internal' warring?
 
Actually, cities acting as independent entities was widespread in all Europe, safe England and Spain (where they still had large autonomy). Basically every western medieval city was a republic of its own, under a more or less important protectorate from its suzerain (from nominal suzerainty, to really interventionist)

Flemish cities, Consular movement (in southern France as Toulouse that between 1189 and 1200's was equally independent as, say Florence), Communes (peacefully as Le Mans or insurrectional as Laon, the latter being often defeated), etc. did existed outside HRE (more exactly, in the same continuity than HRE).

The main difference is that Imperial authority didn't managed to really impose itself, when Capetian either crushed independence leaning, or actually played urban autonomy under their "protection" to counter too powerful vassals.
 
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Part question, part idle wondering is the source of this thread.

Why was small independent citystate republics so prevelent in northern Italy, which 'at best' paid lip service to HRE, if they weren't completely ignoring any thought of having some liege over them, and half-indepedent states in Germany (republics, archbishopies and tiny city-sized duchies such as Luxenbourg alike), under the de jure leadership of the Emperor), while nearly non-existing in the rest of Europe?

How to make this even more prevelent in the rest of europe, with similar city states in France and Netherlands and the like, and what changes would this cause to the European history in terms of expansion and 'internal' warring?

City states in Northern Italy did not end up being such a time-extended phenomenon: it developed in the 10th-11th centuries, and as soon as they managed to tell the Emperor to keep his grubby hands in his pockets (1176, battle of Legnano) it started unraveling quite quickly.

I'd bet the fragmented development has something to do with a top liege existing - a city can get more or less rich and powerful, but until it's under a man who is clearly the lord of your neighbours as well, it's hard to create something new altogether.
 
Actually, cities acting as independent entities was widespread in all Europe, safe England and Spain (where they still had large autonomy). Basically every western medieval city was a republic of its own, under a more or less important protectorate from its suzerain (from nominal suzerainty, to really interventionist)

To elaborate on England at least, you had the City of London (which was legally separate from the wider Kingdom of England in so far as laws did not automatically apply there and those towns which were created county corporate and were therefore administratively separate from the rest of the counties and had their own sheriffs, lord Lieutenants, ability to pass laws and so forth.

And of course you had the Soke of Peterborough which was administratively autonomous for a long time (there's a fascinating bit where during the 1889 local government reform there's basically an agreement where London agrees to allow the Soke to maintain their ancient rights to a separate legal system, so long as they don't exercise them).
 
Indeed. We're still relativly far from the situation in France.

Reading the Etablissements de Rouen (a chart made in 1204 that served as model for a good part of communes in Northern France) establish, by exemple, military autonomy under royal protectorate, or where laws (safe the royal edicts and articles of the chart, of course) were made independently (admittedly, depending on the royal pressure, that was growing) and of course fiscal and budgetary autonomy.
Flemish cities are quite a good exemple on how far northern french cities could get independent.

The case of southern consulship (is that a word?) is a bit different, being both more inspired by italian model and by local specificities.
Before the crusade, some cities had really large autonomy, up to independence de facto for Toulouse (the count couldn't act on its own in the city, municipal armies warring with neighbours, creation of a contado, etc.)
 
And of course you had the Soke of Peterborough which was administratively autonomous for a long time (there's a fascinating bit where during the 1889 local government reform there's basically an agreement where London agrees to allow the Soke to maintain their ancient rights to a separate legal system, so long as they don't exercise them).
That is brilliant! :D
 
Indeed. We're still relativly far from the situation in France.

Reading the Etablissements de Rouen (a chart made in 1204 that served as model for a good part of communes in Northern France) establish, by exemple, military autonomy under royal protectorate, or where laws (safe the royal edicts and articles of the chart, of course) were made independently (admittedly, depending on the royal pressure, that was growing) and of course fiscal and budgetary autonomy.
Flemish cities are quite a good exemple on how far northern french cities could get independent.

The case of southern consulship (is that a word?) is a bit different, being both more inspired by italian model and by local specificities.
Before the crusade, some cities had really large autonomy, up to independence de facto for Toulouse (the count couldn't act on its own in the city, municipal armies warring with neighbours, creation of a contado, etc.)

Consulship is indeed a word, but I think it would usually be taken to mean 'holding the position of a Consul'. Theoretically it could be applied in a more general sense in the way that Kingship has been, but I think it's a bit odd.

I think the most likely adjective would be 'Consulate', which is a bit confusing but no more so than the fact that France was ruled by a 'Directorate' at one point.
 
okay then, but why are those generally then seen as either revolting cities or 'merely' autonomous areas, whereas both Northern Italy and (to a lesser degree) HRE is pretty much acknowledged to be a number of more or less independent states? ... lack of a strong liege above them doesn't quite seem to be the right answer, since i can't mention one place that didn't have periods with a weak liege both in terms of political and/or military power
 
okay then, but why are those generally then seen as either revolting cities or 'merely' autonomous areas, whereas both Northern Italy and (to a lesser degree) HRE is pretty much acknowledged to be a number of more or less independent states? ... lack of a strong liege above them doesn't quite seem to be the right answer, since i can't mention one place that didn't have periods with a weak liege both in terms of political and/or military power

Wasn't this more or less established with the Golden Bull of 1356 and later with the Peace of Westphalia?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
To elaborate on England at least, you had the City of London (which was legally separate from the wider Kingdom of England in so far as laws did not automatically apply there and those towns which were created county corporate and were therefore administratively separate from the rest of the counties and had their own sheriffs, lord Lieutenants, ability to pass laws and so forth.

And of course you had the Soke of Peterborough which was administratively autonomous for a long time (there's a fascinating bit where during the 1889 local government reform there's basically an agreement where London agrees to allow the Soke to maintain their ancient rights to a separate legal system, so long as they don't exercise them).

The CoL still has its own police service. (Saw them just last week.)
 
okay then, but why are those generally then seen as either revolting cities or 'merely' autonomous areas, whereas both Northern Italy and (to a lesser degree) HRE is pretty much acknowledged to be a number of more or less independent states?
You didn't had that of a clear distinction between them. The only city that I can think of being considered as truly independent from HRE or neighbouring realms is Genoa (I'm not counting former Byzantine outpost as Venice that always were such), and even the collection of italian city-states awknowledged the imperial suzerainty (to be noted that this treaty isn't isolated historically, but within a period of insurrectional municipalities, sometimes sucessful : I quoted Toulouse in 1189, but Montpellier and its Magna Carta in 1204 is interesting as well). That they were largely independent isn't a specific feature, but encountered elsewhere in Europe where vassals could be such relativly easily.

Every feudal realm was concieved being a collection of fiefdoms or other autonomous/independent entities. Again, the exemple of Flemish cities (NOT part of HRE) that acted exactly as North Italian cities on many regards is interesting.
The main difference is the capacity of the prince to enforce his authority over them : it failed in HRE for several reason, and worked in France...well sort of (mostly by the establishment of a "royal protectorate" over them, both bypassing their vassal interests and trying to control the rise of municipal autonomy rather than fight it.

lack of a strong liege above them doesn't quite seem to be the right answer, since i can't mention one place that didn't have periods with a weak liege both in terms of political and/or military power
I don't get your point.
The rise of autonomous municipalities, up to the formation of contados, is independent of how strong or weak was the suzerain. It's a global phenomenon.

How these were able to maintain their autonomy/independence isn't related to a weak liege, but to its policies.
Of course, having a realm devastated regularly by civil wars as the HRE didn't helped at all : it's not that astonishing that the period of independence de facto (XIIth-XVth) coincides with regular crisis within the HRE, and ends with Habsburg takeover.
 
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