Europe and west's fate in Asia/China progress..

Aka, what would happens to Europe and the west (roughly), and more specifically, sociological, religious, philosphicaly, etc edges, had China (or asia in general) kinda 'won' the advancement course? What if China overtook Europe and kept ahead, preindustrial, industrial conditions went in, a sort of colonialism maybe?

What would it change in europe, europeans? Would there be a growing isolationism born of a fear of a new threat, a growing feeling of inferiority? Like Islam after the Mongols, would Christianism as a whole tend to gradually retreat into a traditionalism, and a certain radicalism?

OR it could open the minds of europeans in the long run?

This is a part of this scenario rarely answered I felt. The ripple effects away, and mindsets.
 

Esopo

Banned
I dont see asia developing an industrial revolution whitout a pod which could introduce there the scientific method. What could it be?
 
I dont see asia developing an industrial revolution whitout a pod which could introduce there the scientific method. What could it be?

Well, there was sciences and techniques in the east too. There was missed opportunities I grant thee, but China and India had some headstarts.

Like the humble 0 - it's from india, that theory.

Personally, I was thinking of Song to Ming dynasties of China. But if you have great PODs...
 

Esopo

Banned
Well, there was sciences and techniques in the east too. There was missed opportunities I grant thee, but China and India had some headstarts.

Like the humble 0 - it's from india, that theory.

Personally, I was thinking of Song to Ming dynasties of China. But if you have great PODs...

Science and techniques arent enough, whitout the method which was developed in the west after the renaissance.
Is it possible an asian Galileus? What it is needed is understanding that observation and experiment are the key of development.
 
Science and techniques arent enough, whitout the method which was developed in the west after the renaissance.
Is it possible an asian Galileus? What it is needed is understanding that observation and experiment are the key of development.

Yeah, but what one means by this? The bases are also in China and all that. They have the same model too, the problem is something else I feels, like the mercantilism.

There is a cliché that points that region of the world as 'stiff' and 'uncreative'. Which it wasn't.

Mind you, also, my thread is about what if it was DONE, not HOW so much then. IF China/Asia/etc took off, what then for europeans('s mindset)?
 
The PoD for this sort of change would have to be so profound and so early that "Europeans" probably wouldn't exist as a label for people.

If you want industrial revolution in Asia - break up China. Lots of wars between the pieces to drive progress for weaponry, which in turn drives everything else. Have porcelin not invented (see why the PoD is going to have to be huge) and find some way for glass to be developed. Get rid of the tendency toward massive bureaucracy in that sort of region. Have some way for the coal resrves in north China to be exploited properly. OTL they are in some kind of semi-desert not suited to intense levels of population. I'm not really sure how old "Asian values" are (obedience to elders, needs of the community before individual, tradition) but they need to go too.

Then to stop Europe rising. you could do this in any number of ways but the PoD would have to be found that not only did this but also did to Asia what I outlined above.

So yeah like I said in this sort of scenario the term "European" would be totally meaningless because everything that is today "European" is the reason that Europe won that race. We would have no idea how the people living in the geographical area that is OTL called "Europe" would react. You can't just go back to 1400 or something and say China discovers the new world, China had already missed the boat by then, probably by something like 700 years or so, if not many more.
 

Esopo

Banned
Yeah, but what one means by this? The bases are also in China and all that. They have the same model too, the problem is something else I feels, like the mercantilism.

There is a cliché that points that region of the world as 'stiff' and 'uncreative'. Which it wasn't.

Mind you, also, my thread is about what if it was DONE, not HOW so much then. IF China/Asia/etc took off, what then for europeans('s mindset)?

Its not an issue of being creative, but of having the concept of sistematic observation of the nature in order to modify it, which was introduced only in europe and only after the renaissance. Before that, there are crafty civilizations, not scientific ones.

Anyway, about the consequences, we can imagine stagnant, weak european nations (or an unified empire: an absburg one maybe?) repeteadly defeated by an emergent asian power, and forced to accept diplomatic and economic harsh conditions. About actually colonizing europe, it is too much populated to send settlers, but we can imagine something like india.
 
The PoD for this sort of change would have to be so profound and so early that "Europeans" probably wouldn't exist as a label for people.

If you want industrial revolution in Asia - break up China. Lots of wars between the pieces to drive progress for weaponry, which in turn drives everything else. Have porcelin not invented (see why the PoD is going to have to be huge) and find some way for glass to be developed. Get rid of the tendency toward massive bureaucracy in that sort of region. Have some way for the coal resrves in north China to be exploited properly. OTL they are in some kind of semi-desert not suited to intense levels of population. I'm not really sure how old "Asian values" are (obedience to elders, needs of the community before individual, tradition) but they need to go too.

Then to stop Europe rising. you could do this in any number of ways but the PoD would have to be found that not only did this but also did to Asia what I outlined above.

So yeah like I said in this sort of scenario the term "European" would be totally meaningless because everything that is today "European" is the reason that Europe won that race. We would have no idea how the people living in the geographical area that is OTL called "Europe" would react. You can't just go back to 1400 or something and say China discovers the new world, China had already missed the boat by then, probably by something like 700 years or so, if not many more.

Wait, what? This whole post makes no sense. Why break up China? China was capable of technological advances when it was one coherent whole. Case in point, while many on this forum know about the proto-industrialization of the Southern Song, it also occurred during the Northern Song, when China was mostly united. As for the bureaucracy, I don't think I've ever read that it was heavier per-capita than comparable states in Europe, and I would think it might be even less intensive. As for Asian values, it would be absurd to say or think that Europeans disregard tradition, the need to put the community before the self, or respect for elders. If somebody wanted to have this China wins scenario, I would say they need not look earlier than 1200, and probably could get away with a 1600 POD. Before that, China was already as advanced, if not more, than Europe.
 
havethe chinese invent glass along with porcelain...glass played a njor part in the development of europe, and its a quite intersing theroy with alot of fact to back it up, that chinese dispensation to tea and such prevented them from developing glass and stagnated their scientific development (glass is a mjor thing in science, art and infrastructure)
 

scholar

Banned
havethe chinese invent glass along with porcelain...glass played a njor part in the development of europe, and its a quite intersing theroy with alot of fact to back it up, that chinese dispensation to tea and such prevented them from developing glass and stagnated their scientific development (glass is a mjor thing in science, art and infrastructure)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcelain#Chinese_porcelain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Chinese_glass

Please learn on Chinese advances. They had both porcelain and glass since before there were Romans.
 
Coincidentally I've been reading a book about China recently that mentions this thing. It gives a few possible reasons for the west's jump ahead in later times. One of which is unity, but not for the reasons commonly cited like how "conflict brings innovation" or whatever. The reason, the author said, that unity impeded innovation in China's case was that a single political entity meant there was only one orthodox line of thought that was accepted, contrary to the European Renaissance where if an idea was banned in Italy scientists could simply go to Holland to discuss it. Connected to this is the actual orthodox line of thought at hand, the Confucian elite that dominated society, especially the court. Dogmatic Confucian scholars were far more concerned with introspection and philosophy and that sort of thing than practical applications of physics and other sciences. To them education was mostly about reciting classic literature and such and things outside of the human condition were not regarded as important. So by the 13-14th centuries the field of science pretty much atrophied and progress was slow from there, excepting some short boosts in the Ming and Qing dynasties. Furthermore, there was little cooperation really for scientists. Not that they bickered or anything, but scientists of different fields simply didn't interact with each other. An alchemist in some Daoist abbey in the mountains wouldn't have much to do with a court philosopher or some engineer in the city. And they didn't have any real analogues to universities where scientists and the like from all over the empire could gather to discuss things and work together.

One idea I had to preserve Chinese dominance and prevent their atrophy of later times was to prevent the catastrophic collapse of the Tang Dynasty, making the eventual end of the dynasty more gentle without millions of people dying during rebellions and the like, and replacing them with a new dynasty far more stalwart than the Song, whose advancements were quite respectable but were so military weak it really didn't help at all. I know I mentioned that unity was a problem, but being conquered by nomads who either kill everything like the Mongols did or oppress people to ridiculous extents like the Manchu kinda pushes things back, so the new dynasty would have to be military strong and reunite the empire so as to prevent Mongol invasion and give China some degree of stability. Also, they should follow the example of certain Tang emperors and place a much larger emphasis on Daoism, giving it more favor than orthodox Confucianism. Daosim as both a religion and a philosophy placed much more emphasis on the individual and nature than Confucianism, meaning they were far more interesting in applications of technology and other practical sciences and works rather than being obsessed with social order and reverence of the past.
 
The PoD for this sort of change would have to be so profound and so early that "Europeans" probably wouldn't exist as a label for people.

If you want industrial revolution in Asia - break up China. Lots of wars between the pieces to drive progress for weaponry, which in turn drives everything else. Have porcelin not invented (see why the PoD is going to have to be huge) and find some way for glass to be developed. Get rid of the tendency toward massive bureaucracy in that sort of region. Have some way for the coal resrves in north China to be exploited properly. OTL they are in some kind of semi-desert not suited to intense levels of population. I'm not really sure how old "Asian values" are (obedience to elders, needs of the community before individual, tradition) but they need to go too.

Then to stop Europe rising. you could do this in any number of ways but the PoD would have to be found that not only did this but also did to Asia what I outlined above.

So yeah like I said in this sort of scenario the term "European" would be totally meaningless because everything that is today "European" is the reason that Europe won that race. We would have no idea how the people living in the geographical area that is OTL called "Europe" would react. You can't just go back to 1400 or something and say China discovers the new world, China had already missed the boat by then, probably by something like 700 years or so, if not many more.

Wow- I love how people like to talk about Asia in broad generalities with very little actual knowledge of it.

Asia does not simply equal China. What about India which was just as disunited as Europe? Of course there's the fact that brown people obviously can't develop an industrial civilisation... :rolleyes:

And of course China with it's unity couldn't develop- notwithstanding the Song who seem to have been on the verge of developing industrial scale iron and steel working when the Mongols invades

But, of course stereotypes and half-truths are easier to work with. Don't let me get in your way.
 
Its not an issue of being creative, but of having the concept of sistematic observation of the nature in order to modify it, which was introduced only in europe and only after the renaissance. Before that, there are crafty civilizations, not scientific ones.

You could have the Kerala School of Mathematics as a POD. They operated around the 14th to the 15th centuries and independently developed the calculus. Have the ideas of experimentation to determine a proof spread from here and you could very well also see an independent theory of the scientific method.

Anyway, about the consequences, we can imagine stagnant, weak european nations (or an unified empire: an absburg one maybe?) repeteadly defeated by an emergent asian power, and forced to accept diplomatic and economic harsh conditions. About actually colonizing europe, it is too much populated to send settlers, but we can imagine something like india.

As for colonising Europe- it's unlikely to look like anything IOTL. Europe is a relatively poor (in terms of trade goods) region of the world. There would be no point in colonising it. It will become more important later on due to it's rich fossil fuel reserves, so an industrialising Asia might start looking at it then, but there would be no initial impulse to colonise as the Europeans had in the search for Asian trade goods.
 
Also, even if Asia doesn't start lagging, Europe is progressing forward at a good pace - and with an attitude that will respond to, say, Chinese use of steam engines as something to emulate.

Islam's post-Mongol decline is a result of devastating invasions and too many Turkomen, neither of which are a problem for Europe here.
 
I believe that the rise to world power of Europe was essentially the rise of capitalism. And that Europe's disunity was indeed related to why and how the new economic and social and political forms associated with capitalism could arise there. It parallels the argument above about how scientific progress could continue in one nation when banned in another, but what is going forward is not abstract knowledge but the evolution of concrete industrial processes and the organization of the economy in general. These things are even more subject than abstract knowledge to censorship and interference by a powerful, centralized clique. There's just so much more at stake. If some philosophers argue about whether the Earth or Sun is the center of the universe, that might be troublesome. But if some jumped-up peasants are reorganizing the wool industry, that has immediate and widespread consequences that affect the revenues and political stability in the regions affected. A smart, pragmatic ruling bureaucracy might conceivably decide the progress involved is useful and beneficial and foster it instead of surpressing it, but by and large the powers that be won't be comfortable, the de facto bargains they've made with the underclasses will be broken, and it will be less trouble just to enforce the status quo.

But if there are lots of rival nations, there is a certain amount of chaos going on all the time in which innovations might insert themselves. A regime that is more canny or just lucky in fostering these reaps benefits in terms of increased opportunity for revenue, new technologies that might have a military application, and generally is favored over others that are in some combination more hidebound or less lucky. Competition has a selective effect that tends to shift the norms of politics to favor the rising bourgeois classes and their priorities.

I certainly would not want to write off East Asia as a possible earlier industrial giant. For one thing perhaps there are other approaches to rising technology than capitalism, though I'd bet they are slower. For another, conceivably Chinese society might "mutate" in a way that permits more competitive enterprise without regulating it out of steam nor sucking up all its profits in taxes. Capitalism in one empire might possibly take off after all. Finally, while China is typically unified there are a number of other smaller powers in the region, and conceivably some sort of capitalist constellation could arise among them--in Indonesia say. Then China might get drawn into this orbit despite all the factors that would tend to keep them aloof.

So I won't say it's unthinkable that a capitalist, or conceivably some sort of non-capitalist but still progressive industrial system, might arise in East Asia and be in the place the Europeans were in in say 1450, some centuries before that. If these East Asians can be where Europeans were in say 1750 around 1550, then the European expansion will find itself stagnated, with doors they were able to blast open OTL already held against them by powers as well able or better able to fight on the same higher-tech, higher productivity terms.

Under those conditions, with the prospects of the sorts of profits that fed the engines of capitalism in the early modern period curtailed, rival schools of thought might well tend to prevail; European competitive merchantilism might get regulated into stable order. Or Europeans might find themselves increasingly apprenticed to Asians, serving as middlemen in their empire-building.

Something I've seen in threads like this before that bears thinking about--the Europeans were motivated to voyage to the far ends of the Earth in search of wealth because they didn't have that much of it where they were. To be sure as productivity due to more modern methods of agriculture and goods rose, the standards of living rose (fitfully, for most working people, quite impressively for the better-off classes) and in terms of items of everyday use the Europeans were getting richer every decade. But Europe was not a source of many prestigious trade goods; when European traders made their way to Cathay at last, they didn't have much to offer in its markets. Eventually the Spanish for instance were able to tap some of China's key goods--by shipping silver from Mexico all the way to Manila in the Philippines, and then trading with Chinese traders there for the precious Chinese goods, which they then shipped on back to Mexico, and from there back to Europe. So only by the more or less forced labor of the Mexican mines were the Spanish able to manage this. The Dutch infamously conquered the Spice Islands and then massacred rivals to gain monopolies.

The question has been raised whether people who lived in the very homelands of these prized goods would choose to venture overseas in search of anything. Even if we suppose they might, they probably won't make targeting Europe a big priority. From their point of view the Europeans are sitting on the margins trying to deal themselves in or withdrawing in offended vanity.

Another factor is geography; certain European nations greatly multiplied their potential wealth by seizing control of vast stretches of the Americas. Would East Asians be so likely to manage to pre-empt control of the Americas from Europeans? They'd be coming in at the west coast rather than the East; they'd find the Rockies/Andes blocking easy expansion eastward, and most of the more highly developed Native American societies first. To be sure Eurasian diseases would be just as devastating to these peoples as they were to the ones that OTL were contacted and decimated east to west.

Still there might be a grace period for Europeans some centuries behind the Asians to nevertheless arrive in the Americas, and stake their claims--though in Mexico and Central America, they'd be quite likely to run into Asian-run situations directly. Still the Europeans would have their chances at part of what drove the great engine of capitalist expansion--loot from America.

But less literally so than OTL--if anyone is going to loot the Mexicans or Andeans, it would be the Asians first. It could be that without the lure of simple gold, the Europeans would not have turned to plantation economies in the Caribbean islands, and not discovered the profitability of crops like sugar cane or tobacco.

Or it could be the Europeans were just too slow and despite the inconvenient geography some Asian powers or other are already all over the central seas and from there, up the North American coast and down the South American one.

Without wealth extorted by forced labor from Native Americans and African slaves, it seems likely that domestic development in Europe would go slower.

It's not inconceivable that many Europeans would turn to service of Asian magnates who might have shown some passing interest in Europe, and in that service get taken far afield from Europe and get pretty well integrated into the Asian system. But these, while if emigrating in sufficient numbers would serve as a demographic safety valve, probably won't remit a lot of wealth to Europe nor return themselves.

Europe would be a neglected and poorer backwater, if capitalist or some other form of industrial progressivism continues to advance at all, it will be slowly and fitfully.

And that, I believe, will undercut the vaunted scientific tradition of Europe. I believe that the reason science advanced the way it did OTL in Europe had little to do with values, or traditions--it had to do with opportunities to employ new insights into how things work materially, for material gain. It may be that many scientists were not very practical people and they were in it personally for the thrill of discovery, but the institutions that arose to support them in this fun enterprise had evolved because societies that kept running into physical problems valued physical problem-solvers.

If some East Asian constellation of societies gets the wind of capitalist development in its sails, they too will refine scientific method, make world-changing discoveries and have transformative insights. And the Europeans, having much of the oxygen sucked out of their potential sociological blast furnace, will do a lot less of this.

A reduction in the opportunities for profitable trade overseas, combined with slower rates of industrial advance, rising populations hitting the limits of food supplies as raised by known methods but with not much to show in the way of improving those supplies--I'm afraid Europe would be a rather rough neighborhood to come from. Conceivably a major export would be hungry young toughs willing to serve as mercenaries; those guys won't come home either.

With the various kingdoms and other polities on the verge of unrest so persistently there would probably be a premium on authoritarian rule; this would tend over time to foster the unification of Europe into a relatively few dynastic empires, conceivably into one for the whole.

Europe would probably today be in a position like Turkey OTL--not quite as backward as some other places, with a lot of potential, but definitely not in the first ranks of the major nations.
 

scholar

Banned
Coincidentally I've been reading a book about China recently that mentions this thing. It gives a few possible reasons for the west's jump ahead in later times. One of which is unity, but not for the reasons commonly cited like how "conflict brings innovation" or whatever. The reason, the author said, that unity impeded innovation in China's case was that a single political entity meant there was only one orthodox line of thought that was accepted...
China's greatest periods of technological innovation were when the Chinese themselves were unified. The Han, Tang, and Song Dynasties all were unified. The Song would rapidly become fragmentary, but not between Chinese states, rather between the chinese of the south and the foreign ruled chinese of the north. The Ming and the Qing would also bring with them fantastic technological progress. The Qing at one point was beating back the Russians and enforcing its demands upon the Europeans at its leisure, only after corruption and weak emperors took hold did the Qing rapidly lose itself and cease to be a threat.
 
(snip.)

So I won't say it's unthinkable that a capitalist, or conceivably some sort of non-capitalist but still progressive industrial system, might arise in East Asia and be in the place the Europeans were in in say 1450, some centuries before that. If these East Asians can be where Europeans were in say 1750 around 1550, then the European expansion will find itself stagnated, with doors they were able to blast open OTL already held against them by powers as well able or better able to fight on the same higher-tech, higher productivity terms.

And yet Europe was growing and progressing in ways that this leaves completely unchecked - people underestimate the relevance of the cod trade relative to the spice trade as driving Europe forward, for instance.

It's not a dramatic influx of wealth, but it is probably even more important to Europe's growth.

Under those conditions, with the prospects of the sorts of profits that fed the engines of capitalism in the early modern period curtailed, rival schools of thought might well tend to prevail; European competitive merchantilism might get regulated into stable order. Or Europeans might find themselves increasingly apprenticed to Asians, serving as middlemen in their empire-building.


Why would it? How would it?

(snip.)
But less literally so than OTL--if anyone is going to loot the Mexicans or Andeans, it would be the Asians first. It could be that without the lure of simple gold, the Europeans would not have turned to plantation economies in the Caribbean islands, and not discovered the profitability of crops like sugar cane or tobacco.

Why would the Asians loot them first?

It's not inconceivable that many Europeans would turn to service of Asian magnates who might have shown some passing interest in Europe, and in that service get taken far afield from Europe and get pretty well integrated into the Asian system. But these, while if emigrating in sufficient numbers would serve as a demographic safety valve, probably won't remit a lot of wealth to Europe nor return themselves.

Many? Why?

Europe would be a neglected and poorer backwater, if capitalist or some other form of industrial progressivism continues to advance at all, it will be slowly and fitfully.

And that, I believe, will undercut the vaunted scientific tradition of Europe. I believe that the reason science advanced the way it did OTL in Europe had little to do with values, or traditions--it had to do with opportunities to employ new insights into how things work materially, for material gain. It may be that many scientists were not very practical people and they were in it personally for the thrill of discovery, but the institutions that arose to support them in this fun enterprise had evolved because societies that kept running into physical problems valued physical problem-solvers.

Which is not going away here, not at all.

If some East Asian constellation of societies gets the wind of capitalist development in its sails, they too will refine scientific method, make world-changing discoveries and have transformative insights. And the Europeans, having much of the oxygen sucked out of their potential sociological blast furnace, will do a lot less of this.

Despite the fact the trade with the Orient, flashy and wealth producing as it was, is hardly the be all, end all? Europe has a lot more driving it forward than India and the Indies.
 

Esopo

Banned
How would a dominant asia consider the culture and religion of a declined and "colonized" europe?
 
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