Ethnicity of Crusade States
- Thread starter Finn
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I had the assumption that the nobility would be predominantely French in terms of ethnicity. The mercantile class would be a mix of Greeks, Arabs, Levantine Christians, and Italians. Anything else.....I'm not too sure.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
It's pretty vague according to Wikipedia. They were probably a mish-mash from every group in Europe.
I'm guessing they'd end up speaking a Romance language, what with all the Latin?
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
And the French. It would probably be a French-derived Romance language. I do think there's room for other languages. Depending if the Eastern Roman Empire continues to exist and hang over the Crusader states, you might have Greek be spoken or be taught as a trade language and the same could apply with the Italian dialects and languages. Arabic might be a necessity in regards to diplomacy with its Muslim neighbors.
Kosta
Banned
Fun fact: there are traces of the Crusader's and Italians who set up shoppe in the Levant today. I was taking with the wife of a restaurant-owner, who is Lebanese, who said that I could easily pass as Lebanese. My Mother, in her wisdom, decided to point out "But he's too pale!". The owner's wife replied that it's completely unheard of to see blonde people in Lebanon (it might have just been where she was from) because the Crusaders, Venetians, and Genoese all intermingled with the residents of the Levant, I guess.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Not to mention I reckon the lot of the Europeans who were born and raised in the Levant decided to stick around. Some ended up converting and assimilating to the local population.
Finn, when do you mean by the Crusader states, do you mean all of them? Because the County of Edessa would certainly be diverse. Armenians, Greeks, French, Arabs, Italians and Aramaics.
Finn, when do you mean by the Crusader states, do you mean all of them? Because the County of Edessa would certainly be diverse. Armenians, Greeks, French, Arabs, Italians and Aramaics.
My guess is - depending on how tumultuous the centuries are in the Holy Land, and the Mongols, Mamelukes, etc in surrounding regions - more European immigrants, particularly Italians, Greeks, French, possibly even a flow of Germans. Still, I can't see them being more than 20% of the population in any TL. There will always be a far greater percentage of the locals. Maybe a sort of mestizo mixture (or whatever word is used) between Europeans and Arabs.
Just my guess.
Just my guess.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Take this for a grain of salt but the Western population in the Kingdom of Jerusalem was bordering on 25%.
There is also the fact that Middle Easterners were lighter in general until the Arab population explosion and the African slave trade.
How many of those were soldiery? That is, how many were crusaders only there temporarily? Just wondering.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I'm not really sure. Various sources state that the Crusader states were low on troops and relied on mercenaries and military orders to boost their forces.
I'm sure over the centuries the place could become majority Christian, or at least plurality. Maybe not during the time of the Crusades, but later with immigration and demographics. Israel managed to do it, the Crusader States can do the same thing with centuries of time. Not a savory or fortunate scenario, but a realistic one, I think.
"Surviving crusader states" and "realistic scenario"? The two are incompatible. You could have them last longer, but ultimately, they're not going to last. And ultimately means within a century or two of their OTL demise.
Not with medieval Europe being ill equipped to be a superior military power to the Muslim states in the area, and (barring a successful ERE, which will want to control the Crusader states - they are occupying territory that it sees as rightfully Roman and "fellow Christian" doesn't mean very much) any support for them having to come a long way away (not a problem with 20th century technology for moving men and materials, a large problem for Medieval states).
Besides, how do you encourage people to come there? Israel could play "we Jews have a homeland" card to attract settlement.
Not with medieval Europe being ill equipped to be a superior military power to the Muslim states in the area, and (barring a successful ERE, which will want to control the Crusader states - they are occupying territory that it sees as rightfully Roman and "fellow Christian" doesn't mean very much) any support for them having to come a long way away (not a problem with 20th century technology for moving men and materials, a large problem for Medieval states).
Besides, how do you encourage people to come there? Israel could play "we Jews have a homeland" card to attract settlement.
The place probably already was majority Christian at the time of the Crusades, albeit of various eastern branches of the Church. Native Christians had begun to decline under the Abbasids, but it was only under the Crusaders and Mamelukes that they ceased to dominate the populations of the population of Syria and Egypt.
A little known fact is how the Catholic Church became the majority religion after the capture of Jerusalem. Prior to the First Crusade Muslims were a plurality at around 30-35% of the population with the 70% who were Christian being split between the various versions of Christianity with Greek Orthodox the largest (c.20-25%). Catholics were third with around 15-20% then the various Christians sects including Copts, and finally the Jews.
These figures are based on a variety of measures including number of Church's, number of priests etc. so its pretty fuzzy but those are the best guesses.
Catholics became a majority not by converting Muslims, though there was a bit of that; nor immigration as most tended to be men who returned after a few years though Latins did make up between 10-20% (very controversial). Catholics became a majority by converting people from the other Christian Church's, especially Greek Orthodox. That is one of the reasons for the poor relations between the Greeks and the Latins, the Latins were stealing the Greeks flock.
These figures are based on a variety of measures including number of Church's, number of priests etc. so its pretty fuzzy but those are the best guesses.
Catholics became a majority not by converting Muslims, though there was a bit of that; nor immigration as most tended to be men who returned after a few years though Latins did make up between 10-20% (very controversial). Catholics became a majority by converting people from the other Christian Church's, especially Greek Orthodox. That is one of the reasons for the poor relations between the Greeks and the Latins, the Latins were stealing the Greeks flock.
I'm trying to sift through my memories of Runcimans history, he had a fair bit on demographics in there. There were only about 3000 nobles in Outremer, and while these stayed quite pure over the couple of centuries one would think that over time Armenian, Byzantine and other regional Christian nobles in order to secure alliances and the like.
Sergeants and other non noble soldiers were already marrying local women and producing a class of people with a name which escapes me.
I also think that as local nobles intermarried with Franks and Frankish troops marrying locals en-masse and their children being recruited into the army the predjudices against local Christians would erode.
As an aside, I wouldn't be so hasty do dismiss the survival of Outremer as ASB. There are so many major events during the era that any of them could have altered the trajectory of history allowing Outremer to persist for much longer.
Sergeants and other non noble soldiers were already marrying local women and producing a class of people with a name which escapes me.
I also think that as local nobles intermarried with Franks and Frankish troops marrying locals en-masse and their children being recruited into the army the predjudices against local Christians would erode.
As an aside, I wouldn't be so hasty do dismiss the survival of Outremer as ASB. There are so many major events during the era that any of them could have altered the trajectory of history allowing Outremer to persist for much longer.