Ethiopia of the West (working name)

[The Kiat]

I had an idea while listening to Roots (the audiobook). There were a number of kingdoms in West Africa that rose and fell. But what if one of the empires didn't fall. I want to work with Songhai, since it was a contemperary to Europe's beginning conquest of the world. In reality, it fell in 1591, due to a Moroccan Invasion, that ended with the destruction of Goa.

What if the invasion failed, and Songhai survived. I'm envisioning a state that can survive colonization and continue on until today, like Ethiopia (hence the name). I'm not planning on a Super Power or economic giant (though Songhai would have oil reserves), but a moderately industrialized state that can bargain as equals with European powers.

Any thoughts? Or better yet, anybody have information on Songhai more than Wikipedia offers?

 

[The Kiat]

The Empire I see would stretch from the Gambia to the Niger Delta. Something like this ugly map.

 

[Russian Sailor]

I would definately be reading your timeline

Edit: if you make one

But the songhai empire if I am not wrong was not centralized enough

Also if there is one thing that the songhai must learn from their conflicts with the morracans it is the knowledge of gunpowder

 

[Beedok]

Ooh, an African TL. Increase the diversity!

 

[Russian Sailor]

Ooh, an African TL. Increase the diversity!

I know we need more african and Russian tl's!!!!!!!

 

[Monty Burns]

I really like that! There's far too few African TL on the board.

I'm no expert on African history, though. I think the main problem would be to get the Songhai into contact with Europe in such a way that they take over European know how but aren't taken over themselves.

 

[Beedok]

I know we need more african and Russian tl's!!!!!!!

There's a lack of Russian ones?

I had not known that.

 

[The Kiat]

I would definately be reading your timeline

Edit: if you make one

But the songhai empire if I am not wrong was not centralized enough

Also if there is one thing that the songhai must learn from their conflicts with the morracans it is the knowledge of gunpowder

Ah, thanks for the tip. Making Songhai more centralized was be a start.

I'm seeing an Empire that dominates the region and its trade. Any Europeans want gold, ivory or slaves (yes, slaves. It was a fact of life back then. THough I think African slavery was more like indentured servatude and was a form of punishment) then they would have to do business with Songhai. They could trade for guns, and the native blacksmiths could copy it.

I have to find out the locations of gunpowder resources in the region. Charcoal shouldn't be a problem. And having parts of the empire in the forest, during the wet season, would cause a demand for self-contained ammo once it was invented.

Now hiring shipwrights would be problematic, since Europe wouldn't want to lose its domination over external trade. Perhaps starting out with small ships, and the pretext of fighting pirates along the Gulf of Guiana.



I'll probably start on it sometime next month.

 

[Blackfox5]

Ethiopia survived the European colonization because a) it got lucky in defeating the Italians, 2) its mountainous geography is good defensive terrain, and 3) it has a long history of culutral cohesion. This enabled it to survive.

Songhai doesn't have anything like that. There will be multiple European powers that will threaten it in the 19th century. Its location in the western Sahel and Sudan make it very vulnerable to drought, and provides very little defensive protection. It will have a lot of competitors in the Sahel and western Sudan who will rebel against its rule, and attempt to pick away at its empire. There are a large number of different ethnic groups in that area.

Some kind of Songhai state could survive (in the middle Niger), but it likely will not be at the size you indicate. And it will likely not survive 19th century style imperialism.

No indigenous African state is going to industrialize. It will have very limited contact with Europe, and won't adopt European style industrial revolution. It will lack all the prerequisite knowledge and institutions that made it possible. Late 19th century European armies are going to march all over it. It may be possible that rather than outright rule, that the Europeans establish only a protectorate like they did in Morocco and Tunisia. That's really the best case scenario I can see. That might mean a decolonized Songhai might be more like a North African state in terms of development than sub-Saharan Africa.

 

[The Kiat]

Ethiopia survived the European colonization because a) it got lucky in defeating the Italians, 2) its mountainous geography is good defensive terrain, and 3) it has a long history of culutral cohesion. This enabled it to survive.

Songhai doesn't have anything like that. There will be multiple European powers that will threaten it in the 19th century. Its location in the western Sahel and Sudan make it very vulnerable to drought, and provides very little defensive protection. It will have a lot of competitors in the Sahel and western Sudan who will rebel against its rule, and attempt to pick away at its empire. There are a large number of different ethnic groups in that area.

Some kind of Songhai state could survive (in the middle Niger), but it likely will not be at the size you indicate. And it will likely not survive 19th century style imperialism.

No indigenous African state is going to industrialize. It will have very limited contact with Europe, and won't adopt European style industrial revolution. It will lack all the prerequisite knowledge and institutions that made it possible. Late 19th century European armies are going to march all over it. It may be possible that rather than outright rule, that the Europeans establish only a protectorate like they did in Morocco and Tunisia. That's really the best case scenario I can see. That might mean a decolonized Songhai might be more like a North African state in terms of development than sub-Saharan Africa.

Why thank you so much for your encouragement.

Ok, you raise a valid point over the protectorate status that would probably be placed upon such a West African state. No, they wouldn't survive the Race for Africa as such a large state. And, I was thinking about the effects of desertification in the latter half of the 20th Century would have on such a state. They could combat it with irrigation, but since so many rivers that far from glaciers can be seasonal, it will have to be one spectacular (and expensive) hydrological works. Songhai would have its own share of rebellions, uprising, and even religious conflict.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Songhai might not be strong enough to survie. Ethiopia survived because it was isolated, and was lucky enough to reunify just before the Europeans started to show interest in the region. I think Hausa/ Sokoto and/or Bornu would be better candidates, since they're quite isolated.

 

[jycee]

Why thank you so much for your encouragement.

Ok, you raise a valid point over the protectorate status that would probably be placed upon such a West African state. No, they wouldn't survive the Race for Africa as such a large state. And, I was thinking about the effects of desertification in the latter half of the 20th Century would have on such a state. They could combat it with irrigation, but since so many rivers that far from glaciers can be seasonal, it will have to be one spectacular (and expensive) hydrological works. Songhai would have its own share of rebellions, uprising, and even religious conflict.

You will have to balance it. I am not as pessimistic as Blackfox, but such a state could not keep those borders during the 19th century imperialism.

However, the POD you need for this is happens in the late 1500s; butterflies can create a very different European society. Maybe in this TL, late European imperialism is toned down. Allowing for several protectorate states in Africa with indirect administration. This would not only allow for the existence of independent African states but will probably make decolonization much easier on Africa than in OTL.

 

[The Kiat]

Songhai might not be strong enough to survie. Ethiopia survived because it was isolated, and was lucky enough to reunify just before the Europeans started to show interest in the region. I think Hausa/ Sokoto and/or Bornu would be better candidates, since they're quite isolated.

I was looking for a state that can dominate internal trade, creating a monopoly that Europeans would have to deal with, if they want their slaves, gold or ivory.

And that would work as a solution to rebellions mentioned by blackfox. Songhai conquers its enemies and sells them to whoever. Portuguese at first, but if the Dutch or English come along with deals for more technical assistance, that could eject Portugal influence. The Dutch did it in Ceylon, eject Portugal that is, so why not here? There was technical aid to Russia during Tsar Peter's reign, but would they be willing to do the same with an African power? Russia wasn't really considered European during the 16th Century either.

But then, in the mid 19th Century, European powers who have banned slavery use that as a pretext to attack Songhai, claiming the whole civilizing mission, or whatever excuse they please, which in turn results in losing of lands, though not total destruction.

 

[The Kiat]

You will have to balance it. I am not as pessimistic as Blackfox, but such a state could not keep those borders during the 19th century imperialism.

However, the POD you need for this is happens in the late 1500s; butterflies can create a very different European society. Maybe in this TL, late European imperialism is toned down. Allowing for several protectorate states in Africa with indirect administration. This would not only allow for the existence of independent African states but will probably make decolonization much easier on Africa than in OTL.

Pessimistic or not, I asked for info/input, and I'll take it under advisement (and that's not the legalese phrase that means totally ignore, either). I was just using those river boundaries as an initial guideline.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

I was looking for a state that can dominate internal trade, creating a monopoly that Europeans would have to deal with, if they want their slaves, gold or ivory.

And that would work as a solution to rebellions mentioned by blackfox. Songhai conquers its enemies and sells them to whoever. Portuguese at first, but if the Dutch or English come along with deals for more technical assistance, that could eject Portugal influence. The Dutch did it in Ceylon, eject Portugal that is, so why not here? There was technical aid to Russia during Tsar Peter's reign, but would they be willing to do the same with an African power? Russia wasn't really considered European during the 16th Century either.

But then, in the mid 19th Century, European powers who have banned slavery use that as a pretext to attack Songhai, claiming the whole civilizing mission, or whatever excuse they please, which in turn results in losing of lands, though not total destruction.

Several African kingdoms became filthy rich by trading with Europeans, and the Europeans treated them with a certain degree of respect until the Imperialist Age of the 1800s, then they all were annexed, no matter how rich they were, since trade wasn't enough anymore.

 

[Russian Sailor]

You will have to balance it. I am not as pessimistic as Blackfox, but such a state could not keep those borders during the 19th century imperialism.

However, the POD you need for this is happens in the late 1500s; butterflies can create a very different European society. Maybe in this TL, late European imperialism is toned down. Allowing for several protectorate states in Africa with indirect administration. This would not only allow for the existence of independent African states but will probably make decolonization much easier on Africa than in OTL.

A POD in the 1500's would change a lot more things in my opinion.

If the songhai are able to beat back the morracon invasion and be able to learn (through trade and being in non-isolation) ideas and cultures from Europe and Asia well.... It would do a lot more then help out the Songhai it would help create much larger and more (formidable) foes against european and asian imperalism whilst this happens trade contacts with the europeans and asians will also bring it new ideas about agriculture and warfare. So obviously by the time we get to the 19th century we may see a lot less of european imperialism.... and a lot more groveling


Edit: also we because of the Songhai empire having so many protectorates and what not we could see a magna carta form.... Or at least constituition...... maybe

 

[Errnge]

IIRC, many of the rich nations that rose in w. africa (mali, ghana, songhai) traded extensively with the arabs. they were muslim after all, and i think it was a king from mali who on a pilgrimage to mecca impressed the muslim world with his riches. the man was literally throwing gold away in the streets.

i don't know if or why the trade between the arabs and west africa ended, but if trade with, say, the ottomans was more extensive, then Songhai could get its hands on gunpowder weapons, primitive muskets, and cannons.

if songhai had these technologies and improved infrastructure, then when the portuguese arrive, they would find a nation comparable to any other empire in europe or asia. they would establish trade (cuz there was certainly a lot to trade), and likely see them not as a petty tribal land to colonize, but a viable nation similar to how they originally saw china and japan. they would probably send jesuits to convert them from islam as well.

maybe even songhai, if their relationship with portugal and eventually other nations is good enough, they could adopt european shipping

 

[Russian Sailor]

IIRC, many of the rich nations that rose in w. africa (mali, ghana, songhai) traded extensively with the arabs. they were muslim after all, and i think it was a king from mali who on a pilgrimage to mecca impressed the muslim world with his riches. the man was literally throwing gold away in the streets.

i don't know if or why the trade between the arabs and west africa ended, but if trade with, say, the ottomans was more extensive, then Songhai could get its hands on gunpowder weapons, primitive muskets, and cannons.

if songhai had these technologies and improved infrastructure, then when the portuguese arrive, they would find a nation comparable to any other empire in europe or asia. they would establish trade (cuz there was certainly a lot to trade), and likely see them not as a petty tribal land to colonize, but a viable nation similar to how they originally saw china and japan. they would probably send jesuits to convert them from islam as well.

maybe even songhai, if their relationship with portugal and eventually other nations is good enough, they could adopt european shipping

About adopting euroepan shipping I have a few ideas

1. Encourage european settlements not only will they be in contact with the mother land but eventually with trade and ideas flowing from these areas the surronding population will eventually learn from these foreignors.

2. Give incentives for promising shipbuilders and gunsmiths to come and give up their nationality for yours. Just by giving a huge reward or something like that.

Hope these help

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Well Songhai could've always conquered Morroco thus giving them direct access to Europe. The Morrocans have done it to take the gold that was common in West Africa. Why couldn't Songhai do the same in regards to salt which was a highly valuable preservative? To my knowledge, they had a competent military. Someone ambitious enough could've send a large military expedition to conquer them.

 

[Hominid]

Perhaps a Moroccan civil war would prevent the invasion altogether. And I like the idea of trading with the Ottomans. Is there any flaw in that?