Ethelred the Pious (Viking England)

Bumped.

If anyone is interested, I'd like feedback on the idea for the Carolingians' evolution with the Paris Raid butterflied away - basically, a continuation of the late Carolingian doldrums for another forty years. Another Viking invasion, this one from England, led to Paris's revolt, but it became the capital of a much smaller Kingdom of Neustria: this means no France. Hugh Capet himself is never born.
 
Here is a rough - ROUGH - version of a map. It adds the situation in England (which I am set on) to my tentative ideas for France and Germany. It is approximately 25 years since the Robertian rulers of Paris rebuffed the Emperor's authority. They have been unable to draw Aquitaine or other southwestern states into their power sphere. They have made some small gains against the English of Angelania (now vassals of the Emperor) and the Anglo-Cornish occupiers of the Carsborg (Cherbourg) region.

The Empire itself persists despite internal problems. Italy, Aquitaine, and other southern powers continue to honor the Emperor as suzerain. Lively rulers within Germany are also beginning to flex their muscles. The empire of Charlemagne must either change or be torn apart.

Spain is currently in flux. It is eight years after the fall of Leon and only one year since English Vikings conquered what remained of Galicia. Just months ago, Count Ferdinand of Castile fought off a Moorish invasion at Lena, establishing Castile-Asturias as an independent Christian kingdom. The Caliph is currently shoring up his strength for another expedition to pacify the north.

In the two decades ahead, the short-lived Bloodaxe empire will break up, to be replaced by Denmark as the counterbalance to Jorvikish power in the British Isles. Al-Mansur, vizier to the next Caliph, will conquer the Pyrennes and invade Toulouse, breaking Imperial control in the southwest. Much of coastal Aquitaine and Gascony will turn to Neustria for defense and become known as the Aquitanian and Gascon Marches.

Again, this is a rough version. I don't need comments telling me that Germany's eastern border looks ugly. I'm just concerned with the history at this point.

EtP Europe 950 WIP Portion.PNG
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
I think that Aquitaine and the Spanish march would be a independent Kingdom at this point, it lies rather isolalated from the rest of the Empire it travel terms. Beside that I think that Angelania would have a more Germanic name with a bigger population base of settlers in the start, beside that I think it would geographic looking more like Normandy (mostly because that territorium is easier to conquer)*.

*The Viking had little luck in OTL with conquer the richer French Flandern.

Edit: Sorry I didn't see that aquitaine would become Neustrian* in a few years

*I love that you used that term instead of France or Gaul.
 
I think that Aquitaine and the Spanish march would be a independent Kingdom at this point, it lies rather isolalated from the rest of the Empire it travel terms. Beside that I think that Angelania would have a more Germanic name with a bigger population base of settlers in the start, beside that I think it would geographic looking more like Normandy (mostly because that territorium is easier to conquer)*.

*The Viking had little luck in OTL with conquer the richer French Flandern.

Edit: Sorry I didn't see that aquitaine would become Neustrian* in a few years

*I love that you used that term instead of France or Gaul.

My main reason for not making Angelania parallel Normandy exactly was that I wanted something different. It was conquered by a completely different group 20 years after OTL's Normans arrived. I imagined it stretching from the mouth of the Seine to the edge of Flanders. The map looks like it includes Flanders. I can change that, but I'd still prefer it didn't fit precisely into the same space as Normandy.

In a few years, Aquitaine (what's left of it) does join Neustria when the Moors begin crossing the Pyrennes. Maybe by 950 they are independent in all but name, but still consider the Emperor their overall ruler. But I could instead take your suggestion and make them fully independent by this time.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
My main reason for not making Angelania parallel Normandy exactly was that I wanted something different. It was conquered by a completely different group 20 years after OTL's Normans arrived. I imagined it stretching from the mouth of the Seine to the edge of Flanders. The map looks like it includes Flanders. I can change that, but I'd still prefer it didn't fit precisely into the same space as Normandy..

The problem is that the Normandy as a united polit make geographic sense, especially for a invading seafaring group.

In a few years, Aquitaine (what's left of it) does join Neustria when the Moors begin crossing the Pyrennes. Maybe by 950 they are independent in all but name, but still consider the Emperor their overall ruler. But I could instead take your suggestion and make them fully independent by this time.

Your original suggestion make also sense, if it just part of the empire for the short term, it's just in the long term it's to isolated to be part of the empire, but yopu idea takes care of that.
 
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OK. Thanks for the help. Putting Angelania in the same place as Normandy makes for a very odd looking map, but the knowledge that Aquitaine is not really under the Empire's control makes it more plausible:

[EDIT] That _is_ an odd looking map. Probably it would be more accurate to color Aquitaine as an independent kingdom, because there is no way the emperor has any control over it with Neustria in the way. That basically means the net effect of all of these events is that the Robertians/Capets never gain wider control of what we call France, and it instead is divided into a few largish kingdoms. Hm. Disunited France. No Reconquista. A much longer period of paganism in Scandinavia. Christendom is not faring well in this TL.

EtP Europe 950 WIP Portion 2.PNG
 
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This is an obscure period and I hardly the person to offer you meaningful detailed criticism but as I far as I can tell this is a sober well researched project and would like to see it continued.
 
Thank you both. It started as a way to have Viking chieftains running around England and skalds writing a saga about Beowulf. But it turned out to be a critical moment for both Christians in Spain and the Carolingian order in Europe, which is why both have now been shaken by the butterflies that emerged.

My next job is to do more research on the Carolingians to learn what sort of Empire emerged from all of this. Some map sketches I have drawn imagine that the idea of "One Pope, One Emperor" endures, eventually leading to a reorganized empire that encompasses most of the western Catholics on the Continent.

I'm also toying with the idea of English Vikings converting to Islam. Jury's still out... although I suppose there will be no actual juries without a Normandy.

Now I'm wondering about the effects on European culture. The basic concept of feudalism was in place by the POD, I think, but it had a lot of development to reach the form of the High Middle Ages we are accustomed to. With the European situation transformed from Spain to Poland by 950, feudalism is going to be different. And that means knighthood, chivalry, heraldry, courtly love... all of these cultural bits and pieces will be affected. It just occurred to me that Provence, the region where troubadours originally romped around singing ballads of knights and fair maidens, was in TTL on the front line in the conflict between Christianity and Islam. Its culture is bound to be more militant and more anti-Muslim (I'm thinking of El Cid and the Cult of St. James the Moor-Killer in Spain). Meanwhile, in Spain, the Christian kingdoms were never strong enough to mount a Reconquista and were instead forced to adapt to an existence surrounded by more powerful Moorish neighbors. So I expect more cultural blending and tolerance in all parts of Spain.

Once everything is sorted out and I finally reach 4-digit years, I'll post a finished version in Timelines and Scenarios.
 
A short interlude

Lower Seine Valley, just above Rouen, 925

Count Robert raced his horse up the wooded hill, so urgent that his knights who accompanied him had to struggle to keep up. The rest of his army would arrive shortly, but it was imperative that Robert hold the high ground while his enemies, viscious Norsemen from England, were still disembarking from their boats in the valley.

A sight at the top of the ridge made Robert pause. Silhouetted against the trees, a figure sat on horseback. He was clearly English from his dress, and he was clearly waiting for Robert. "My master want talk," the rider called out in a broken sort of Latin.

"You tell your master that he has had five years to talk," responded the count. It had been six years, actually, since Sigtrygg and his Vikings had landed at the mouth of the Seine and begun taking everything they could find. For six years they had lived as squatters on the land that Robert, as Margrave of Neustria, was sworn to defend. To talk of negotiation now, after years of inconclusive bloodshed and on the day of what was sure to be a great battle, was nothing short of ridiculous, not to mention suspicious.

The English rider said nothing as Robert and his knights reached the crest of the hill. Robert surveyed the valley below and let out a gasp. In the river floated the expected long boats, and savage looking Danes and Saxons were pouring out of them. But among them rode armored horsemen-- and in their midst hung the flaming red banner of Robert's King and Emperor.

"Charles' men?" uttered one of the knights. "How?"

The Englishman again asked Robert awkwardly to come with him.

The Count was led to where Sigtrygg sat in a hastily built pavillion, flanked by two guards, an imperial scribe, and a terrified-looking English cleric. When Robert entered, Sigtrygg did not rise, but said something that sounded very smug in a language Robert could not understand, but had learned to despise.

"The Margrave of Angelania welcomes his noble companion the Count of Paris," stammered the cleric in Latin, who clearly was to serve as interpreter for this uncouth invader.

Before Robert could respond with anything other than an incredulous stare, Sigtrygg produced a document. Robert quickly scanned the calligraphy and realized his situation had just changed drastically:

"...since such a faithful one of ours, by the favor of God, coming here in our palace with his arms, has seen fit to swear trust and fidelity to us in our hand, therefore we decree and command that such shall be numbered among our faithful vassals and shall rule over the March of Angelania... In confirmation of which, we have caused our royal seal to be affixed to this letter."

Sigtrygg spoke, and again the nervous monk translated: "The Margrave asks whether your highness had received the news of his meeting with King Charles." Another sentence guttural Danish. "Or of his, er, baptism."

To show off his newfound faith, Sigtrygg tapped his breast, forehead, and shoulders in a careless imitation of the sign of the cross.

Robert looked at the imperial soldiers standing guard and saw that there was little he could do today. "Then I greet you... as a brother in Christ and a fellow servant of the King," he finally said. "But Sigtrygg," he added, "you're doing it wrong." He waited for the monk to translate. "To do the cross, you must start up here." With the back of his hand, Robert delivered a blow that was soft enough not to injure, only to insult. He left the tent quickly, his knights at his heels. "The man who would take such an oath from this barbarian is no Emperor of mine," he muttered as they mounted their horses and rode back toward the ridge.

* * *
Consider this the intro to the next official section of the TL. I'll now do the history of France and Germany in a version that is more coherent than the scattered musings of the last page and a half.

If there are any glaring anachronisms, please point them out.

* * *

In 925, Sigtrygg the Squinty was baptized and swore an oath of fealty to Charles the Simple, King of West Francia and Emperor of the West. Sigtrygg was given the northern coast of Francia from Constantine's Peninsula, across the mouth of the Seine, almost to the edge of Flanders. Robert, Count of Paris and Margrave of Neustria, considered this a betrayal by Charles, since he had been seeking imperial aid for years to drive Sigtrygg out of his lands.

Robert waited for the right moment to strike. He assembled the magnates of Neustria in 930 to repudiate Charles' rule and seize the Angelanian lands, by then ruled by Sigtrygg's brother Godfrey (originally Góröðr, Godefroy in French). Robert captured some land west of the Seine, but failed to conquer all of Angelania. He did defeat Charles in battle, and the Emperor died in prison in Paris in 932.

By then, Robert was calling himself the King of Neustria. He harbored ambitions to take over the entirety of West Francia. But he did not have the strength to carry this out. Aquitaine and the other southern states remained independent, loyal only to the far-off Emperor in Germany.
 
Hm. Disunited France. No Reconquista. A much longer period of paganism in Scandinavia. Christendom is not faring well in this TL.
1. I don't see how a disunited Francia will inhibit Christianity in any way.
2. There are still many, many Christians in Al-Andalus. Almost certainly a majority in the country at this point. Probably, with the acquisition of the north, Al-Andalus will be bankrupt and soon collapse. This happened in OTL after Al-Mansur tried to conquer the Christian north in the tenth century. There will probably be Christian taifa kingdoms or successor states.
3. Paganism can't endure forever amongst the Vikings. Sooner rather than later, Anglo-Saxon missionaries are going to start evangelizing the Anglo-Norsemen. And eventually there will be Saxons in Scandinavia too, spreading the Word of God.
 
1. I don't see how a disunited Francia will inhibit Christianity in any way.
2. There are still many, many Christians in Al-Andalus. Almost certainly a majority in the country at this point. Probably, with the acquisition of the north, Al-Andalus will be bankrupt and soon collapse. This happened in OTL after Al-Mansur tried to conquer the Christian north in the tenth century. There will probably be Christian taifa kingdoms or successor states.
3. Paganism can't endure forever amongst the Vikings. Sooner rather than later, Anglo-Saxon missionaries are going to start evangelizing the Anglo-Norsemen. And eventually there will be Saxons in Scandinavia too, spreading the Word of God.

True on all counts.

The current plan has the Caliphate break up exactly as in OTL, sparked by the same succession crisis. However, some Muslim spheres of power will be planted in the north. Al-Mansur's expansion campaigns will center on the Pyrennes, and the Moorish colonies left behind will eventually threaten a disunited *France.

By the mid-900s, many if not most of the Vikings in the south of England are indeed Christians. Earlier I had played with the idea of a staunchly pagan English king to prolong the old ways, but that's looking less likely. What are the odds of Andalusian merchants bringing Islam to England?

I think I mentioned it on another page, but the short term result of the conquest was actually fewer Saxon missionaries in Scandinavia, since the mission field was suddenly much more fertile at home. So Christianization is delayed in mainland Scandinavia as well as among the Vikings of England. But you're right in that it's merely a delay of the nigh-inevitable.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
If alt-Knut is preoccupied with English/Danish

Alterna-knut? Who are you talking about, Knut Sveinsson of Denmark?
Why do you assume he would be king of this AH England. The first kings of Jorvik were Danes but not of the Skjolding dynasty or in anyway subject to the Danish king (Denmark, which by the was not united until Gorm the Old around 930-940). The later kings were from Dublin.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Alterna-knut? Who are you talking about, Knut Sveinsson of Denmark?
Why do you assume he would be king of this AH England. The first kings of Jorvik were Danes but not of the Skjolding dynasty or in anyway subject to the Danish king (Denmark, which by the was not united until Gorm the Old around 930-940). The later kings were from Dublin.

We really don't know if Denmark was unified before, it seems unrealistic that Godfred in the early 9th century wasn't King of the entire Denmark, with his military action against the Franks, he simply needed to own quite large territories. Especially because he's always mentioned as King of the Danes, and no other kings is mentioned in his life. Sometimes several King is mentioned the Godfred Sons a few decade later is a good example, but they seems to have been co-rulers.

Of course this periode is quite unclear, the only evidence we have are a few verbal legends and the Frankish annuals, which was a rather muddy mix of propaganda and history.
 
Pretty cool timeline so far, and has inspired me to mull over a Viking TL of my own.

Question, would like input

Erik the Red has been butterflied away, but some Scandinavians still end up in Greenland and later Vinland. I've been trying without success to come up with ATL names for these places. Any ideas?

You could call Greenland Gunnbjornsland after Gunnbjorn Ulf-Krakasson, an Icelander who first sighted it around 900.
 
Alterna-knut? Who are you talking about, Knut Sveinsson of Denmark?
Why do you assume he would be king of this AH England. The first kings of Jorvik were Danes but not of the Skjolding dynasty or in anyway subject to the Danish king (Denmark, which by the was not united until Gorm the Old around 930-940). The later kings were from Dublin.

Dathni was talking about an alt-Knut, or a *Knut if you will - someone who would fill that role. Really, you read it out of context, since he was talking about Denmark's likely relations with Iceland in TTL.
 
It's been dormant because I was having trouble visualizing what happens to the Empire after Neustria breaks away, and I've been more focused on some other constructed-culture material elsewhere on the Internets. I think it's time to revive Ethelred, though.

[EDIT] And I'll go with Gunnbjornsland for Greenland. The discovery in 900 is after the POD, but the dynamics of this TL are much more inertial, where butterflies take much longer to spread out. I'm avoiding random differences caused by "butterflies" and am sticking to differences that are actually _caused_ by the POD, not simply by random chance turning out differently. Gunnbjorn sighted Greenland in 900, and in later days the land was named for him.
 
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