Essai en Guerre: an FFO-inspired TL

[Loïc M.]

Hello,

It would be possible to start aircraft production in North Africa (national producers which evacuated their teams would certainly push for it), but there are several arguments against such a solution:
- North Africa is receiving several hundreds of thousands of evacuees from France, they need food and shelter, infrastructure must be developped (railways, airfields, etc); a big part of the workforce will be used for that
- the Army has to be mostly rebuild, the AdA expanded, the losses replaced, ...
- only a small part of the local population has a decent educational level
- starting from the summer 1940, the AdA is more and more relying on US aircrafts and the supply chain is working (transport of planes or crated planes across the Atlantic, assembly, testing, training of crews, ...)
- these US planes are rated as very satisfactory, even if the Hawk is quite expensive (which means the Mustang is a solution...) and will be cleary dominated when the Me-109F arrives
- once habits are established, it would be difficult to change, since France is fighting broken-backed
- last argument (my favourite): if the French manage to start aircraft production, what do you think the USA will be thinking ? "What, competitors for our own planes?" or "Oh well, France doesn't seem to need Lend-Lease after all".

So it seems that political and military decision-makers will certainly be against it. This would probably introduce difficulties with some industrials (and perhaps some politicians also), but pragmatism will prevail.

To be honest, one of our members (he joined the team quite recently) wanted to reconsider the whole question (OMG, redo the whole job???) and developped very interesting stories about MB-157 (and variants) production and operational use.
We didn't go that way.
We consider that the French would probably:
- send engineers and technicians in Allied countries (this can be considered a form of financial contribution)
- allow small-scale work on prototypes, which allows to keep a high technical level, to be able to restart production when France is liberated (well, at that time, jets will be coming, but that's another story)
- maybe build small series of highly specialized planes (long-range transport for example)

Now about the naval aviation (Aéronavale)...
CV Béarn is slow, yes, but had an extensive refit in 1938/1939. The ship was not very useful at the beginning of the war, looking for German raiders in the Atlantic. Therefore the decision to use her as a plane transport.
Now, to fight the Italian navy, Béarn has to be used. We came to the following decisions :
- team her with Eagle (which is barely faster)
- rebuild her airgroup: at the beginning, SBC-4 (at the end of June 40, Béarn was carrying 44 planes relinquished from US depots on Roosevelt order) and B-339 (F2A-2 Buffalo) which were ordered by Belgium
- surplus planes will be used on Eagle (as FrangibleCover said, the FAA lacks fighters)
- make her join the Taranto raid (3 CV and the help of land-based planes, you can imagine the result)
- at the end of 1940, the B-339 are being replaced by G-36A (the rest land-based), some Sworfish complete the group (only torpedo bomber able to operate on Béarn, considering her speed)
- sadly, the ship will be lost in February 1941, in the fightings for Corsica, when the LW arrives in force
- of course, there are many more things to come, but I can't explain everything here

Loïc

 

[jlckansas]

I always thought that the Bearn was the best choice at the time for a ASW carrier in the Atlantic given its size and speed.

 

[Lascaris]

Hello,

It would be possible to start aircraft production in North Africa (national producers which evacuated their teams would certainly push for it), but there are several arguments against such a solution:

It would? Colour me unconvinced. That means building the aircraft plants from scratch with machine tools brought from the United States or evacuated from France. Yes in theory it is doable. But what are the lead times between the evacuation and the first aircraft leaving the assembly lines and at what rate of production?

To be honest, one of our members (he joined the team quite recently) wanted to reconsider the whole question (OMG, redo the whole job???) and developped very interesting stories about MB-157 (and variants) production and operational use.

I do like MB-157 quite a bit but never quite managed to get a satisfactory idea on how to get it into production...

 

[marathag]

only a small part of the local population has a decent educational level

I dare say China and India were worse off, and did small scale production.
No there won't be a French Willow Run in Bone, but probably worse than Castle Bromwich when Nuffield was running the place, but better than Brewster
But the effort would be made

 

[marathag]

even if the Hawk is quite expensive (which means the Mustang is a solution

In 1944, the P-51 was around $7,000 more than the Curtiss, but building them under license is cheaper than buying outright.
The Mustang was better as a long range escort, but P-40 was better at low level fighter bomber missions, missions that the AdA would more likely be doing

 

[Driftless]

Wouldn't there be an incentive from a French aviation engineering experience in keeping one's hand in the manufacturing process - even if a day late and a franc short? As much to attempt to keep engineers, fitters, riveters, welders, even designers gainfully employed in their intended trade. That would require a sense of optimism from the politicos that there is a brighter future ahead, once the Germans are evicted from mainland France.

How much French military manufacturing had to be built from scratch after OTL 1944-45? (I don't know details for that.., but I've always thought it required a pretty substantial rebuild).

*edit* I guess what I'm getting at is that even though near term buying planes ready-to-fly is needed in the short term, there's also a longer-term aviation industry sustaining requirement too.

 

[spkaca]

I'm one of the authors of FFO (FTL in French) and I'm currently reading this very good work.

High praise indeed, thank you very much.

Therefore, you can expect that Malta could be defended more earlier than you wrote by French fighters. One side note : if I'm not wrong, the D-520 has a better climbing speed and service ceiling compared to the H-81 A1, so it would perhaps be a better choice to defend Malta.

Certainly there could have been French fighters there sooner. My thinking, however, was that until the end of 1940 there would be little need as only the Regia Aeronautica was attacking. The Germans only join in in January 1941 (as OTL). In part 4.3, the first French fighters then get into action over Malta in March, after some initial bureaucratic opposition from the RAF. Practically light speed, by bureaucratic standards. The D520 would have been a good choice for Malta - its rate of climb actually slightly better than the Hurricane - but I suspect that by March 1941 in the ATL, the D520s would have seen significant attrition in fighting the Italians in the Tunisia-Libya campaign. In part 2.1 I give an ATL quote to the effect that French policy is to use up their French types first and save the American types as these latter have an active support chain.

This is surprising. Java was pretty much of a backwater during the war. It was also a fairly populous place; the Japanese would have to conscript a lot of workers to disrupt the whole economy. Why did the Japanese need a lot of forced labor there?

My impression is that the Japanese needed a lot of forced labour everywhere. Japan still had a 'poor' economy in the 1940s, i.e. labour-intensive rather than capital-intensive.

Knowing the Japanese, they have no problem in starving the population on Java if it suits their own needs.

Java (like Bengal) was I think particularly vulnerable to famine because of being heavily populated and dependent on food imports. The Japanese war economy was chronically short of shipping, and we can feel certain that the Japanese would not prioritise food considerations for the civilian population of the Co-Prosperity Sphere.

The presence of the first Hawk 81s in units somewhere in Free France is likely, but there would still be a lot of Hawk 75s in the winter of 1940. Historically Malta was defended by Gladiators and Hurricanes while Britain was full of Spitfires, I find it very plausible that under similar political calculations Malta has the 75s while the 81s orbit lazily around Algiers and Casablanca. Dewotines and Blochs are all very well, but if the factories producing spares for them are under enemy occupation they're a diminishing resource and they're much better off being concentrated together where they can be serviced most efficiently

This, basically.

The Blochs would have been left in France, along with the VG-33. That's a pity for the MB-157

If the MB-157 prototype could have gotten to Algeria it might have been an excellent type to receive any development possible. Further thoughts on this below...

So with more produced, of course more losses as fighting continues, but more evacuated, there is no problem to have around 350 D-520 in North Africa.

That's a formidable force. In part 3.1 I perhaps under-rated the role of the remaining French types compared to the H75. I might rewrite that somewhat.

Now if that is not a compliment then i do not know what is.

What do you imagine to happen with the G-36As that historically became the Martlet Mk.I?

I mention them in part 4.1, or rather Mr. Churchill does in his memo of 31st March 1941: "The French have spoken well of the Grumman naval fighters and we have added to our own order for these." It would make sense to later hand these over to the RHAF.

A great man to replace that man did not even allow the Indians to set up a medicine factory as he was a board member of Imperial Chemicals, someone competent like Wavell most probably a civilian should be the Viceroy.

I'm assuming Wavell as per OTL, though somewhat earlier.

if the French manage to start aircraft production, what do you think the USA will be thinking ? "What, competitors for our own planes?" or "Oh well, France doesn't seem to need Lend-Lease after all"

That would be a risk in 1941, but by 1942 with L-L up & running properly, it might be time to revisit the question with less risk. I think Washington would have liked to see its Allies doing their best to improve themselves, up to a point - they would support development & production efforts that had a fair prospect of helping in the current war, but of course had no desire to subsidise potential post-war competition. One thing that might well have worked: a facility in North Africa to produce trainers for use at French aircrew training schools in North Africa itself. That would reduce the need to send French aircrew to North America or the UK for training, and also give the Algiers government control of at least its own aircrew training - not something to sneeze at.

I always thought that the Bearn was the best choice at the time for a ASW carrier in the Atlantic given its size and speed.

She gets her moment of glory, in this ATL, in part 9.6.

I do like MB-157 quite a bit but never quite managed to get a satisfactory idea on how to get it into production...

Wouldn't there be an incentive from a French aviation engineering experience in keeping one's hand in the manufacturing process - even if a day late and a franc short? As much to attempt to keep engineers, fitters, riveters, welders, even designers gainfully employed in their intended trade.

*edit* I guess what I'm getting at is that even though near term buying planes ready-to-fly is needed in the short term, there's also a longer-term aviation industry sustaining requirement too.

If the prototype could have gotten to North Africa, and if enough of the engineers & technicians could make it also, and if Algiers could persuade the US authorities to assist, it would have offered prospects. It might have satisfied both the short-term need to produce an effective machine for the current war (an essential argument for getting US help) and given some prospect of serving as the basis for longer-term industrial sustainment. But potentially a very tricky discussion to be had - to repeat, with L-L the USA wanted to help win the present war, not subsidise potential competitors. So Algiers would have to sell the idea purely on short-term grounds, and keep their longer-term thoughts quiet.

 

[Deleted member 2186]

Now about the naval aviation (Aéronavale)...
CV Béarn is slow, yes, but had an extensive refit in 1938/1939. The ship was not very useful at the beginning of the war, looking for German raiders in the Atlantic. Therefore the decision to use her as a plane transport.


Loïc

Could Bearn have a refit in the United States to make here more useful.

 

[FrangibleCover]

Could Bearn have a refit in the United States to make here more useful.

Absolutely, removing the 6" guns, welding up two of the elevators and squaring up the flight deck to increase its flat area will all make her a more efficient aircraft transport!

In terms of making her a more useful CVL, there's little to be done. Bearn has the size and aircraft capacity to be useful, but she's too slow to accompany modern task forces and to improve that would require ripping her guts out to mess with the engines, which might not even achieve much because she's on a 20kts battleship hullform and not designed to go faster. Militarily it's not even slightly worth it and politically it's more important for France to have an aircraft carrier now than a decent aircraft carrier in two years. @spkaca is using her as a CVE until completely shagged while converting JB into a proper carrier, and I think that's probably the best place for her.

 

[Deleted member 2186]

Absolutely, removing the 6" guns, welding up two of the elevators and squaring up the flight deck to increase its flat area will all make her a more efficient aircraft transport!

In terms of making her a more useful CVL, there's little to be done. Bearn has the size and aircraft capacity to be useful, but she's too slow to accompany modern task forces and to improve that would require ripping her guts out to mess with the engines, which might not even achieve much because she's on a 20kts battleship hullform and not designed to go faster. Militarily it's not even slightly worth it and politically it's more important for France to have an aircraft carrier now than a decent aircraft carrier in two years. @spkaca is using her as a CVE until completely shagged while converting JB into a proper carrier, and I think that's probably the best place for her.

Better for the French to scrap here and use here crew to man a US made escort carrier.

 

[marathag]

Better for the French to scrap here and use here crew to man a US made escort carrier.

politically impossible

 

[Deleted member 2186]

politically impossible

Why, the French did it in OTL with Dixmude who was commsioned in April 9th 1945 with the French Navy and after world war II with the two Independence-class aircraft carriers in 1951 (La Fayette) and in 1953 (Bois Belleau).

 

[Driftless]

Why, the French did it in OTL with Dixmude who was commsioned in April 9th 1945 with the French Navy and after world war II with the two Independence-class aircraft carriers in 1951 (La Fayette) and in 1953 (Bois Belleau).

I'd guess (no inside info) that you'd need to have a French flagged aircraft carrier of some size in service before the Bearn could be retired. One of the early Light Carriers?

 

[Deleted member 2186]

I'd guess (no inside info) that you'd need to have a French flagged aircraft carrier of some size in service before the Bearn could be retired. One of the early Light Carriers?

You mean a french merchant ship that could be turned into a carrier.

 

[Driftless]

You mean a french merchant ship that could be turned into a carrier.

Sure. I'm a rube on naval engineering, but maybe one with bigger powerplant and a better hull shape? Or even one of the transatlantic liners that could be cutdown and rebuilt? With this version of France, might you have more of a pool of ships to draw from?

 

[Loïc M.]

@Lascaris: Well, on the paper, aircraft production can be quite simple if you buy all the parts, it’s just assembly. The question is: what rate of production do you want? It is not well know, but Dewoitine had begun setting up a plant in the cave of Mas-d’Azil (south of Toulouse), in order to produce parts for the D-520 sheltered from the LW bombers.
But yes, if you want lots of planes and quickly, starting aircraft production during the war in France’s situation is barely an option.

@Driftless: That's the general idea, keep and increase the experience, waiting for brighter days. Of course, WE know when mainland France will be liberated. "They" don't know.

For the MB-157, it was captured by the German OTL. If it can be evacuated (and if not, there are still the plans), the project could be submitted to the Americans, it could perhaps influence the XP-47B design. But don't forget the "not invented here" syndrom.

@marathag: In 1940, the NA-73 (Mustang) was cheaper than the Hawk if I’m not wrong. That’s logical since NAA wanted his place on the fighter’s market. At that time, the US military industry had only started to warm up the engine!

@Driftless: There were some destructions to the French industry, because of allied bombings but also German lootage. Of course, it will take time to restart, but not necessarily more than OTL.

@spkaca: Some words about French fighters use between Summer 1940 and Spring 1941. First of all, not all the D-520 are serviceable, many need to be completed (radio, guns, etc). Crews need a better training (OTL, groups were hastily converted from MS-406 or MB-152). So over Libya, the H-75 and MS-406 (and P-731) would be used. Of course, Italian (and maybe some German) bombers will come to target Algiers, Tunis and the D-520 will here play their role. The French will certainly be sure the German will be coming one day or another and will keep their best fighter for this day (and, as I said before, upgrade some numbers to D-523 version). They know, of course, that the D-520 will be gone one day. So the point about logistics is not a real one. They have already reduced the number of different fighter types, this is a significant progress
About French aircraft production: this question will probably come back when the prospect of liberating the country arrives, not before end 1943, begininng of 1944.
"That would reduce the need to send French aircrew to North America or the UK for training": the French have their training schools in North Africa (this is OTL). They will be developed, of course. Only the Aeronavale crews will have to train in the USA.

For the carriers after Béarn's loss, France will get some US merchant-hull based units (what became the Avenger-class CVE OTL). Converting JB takes time... Converting French merchant ships is perhaps not an option: they need them, they don't have the yards to perform that and British yards are working at 100 %. So having a US ship (Lend-Lease) converted in an US shipyard (as for the two Long Island units) is the best option.

 

[marathag]

found this period document from end of the War documenting changes over the year

Came across that the Hawk75 cost for $23,000
Other part to get a total cost, is the GSE costs, like guns, radios and engines.
The Allison was$18k, Packard built Merlin $20k, the R-1830 $11k, R-1820 $9k R-2600 $16k and R-2800 $18k in addition to the above

 

[Driftless]

found this period document from end of the War documenting changes over the year
View attachment 709447
Came across that the Hawk75 cost for $23,000
Other part to get a total cost, is the GSE costs, like guns, radios and engines.
The Allison was$18k, Packard built Merlin $20k, the R-1830 $11k, R-1820 $9k R-2600 $16k and R-2800 $18k in addition to the above

The table shows airframe costs withOUT engines, correct? So, a 1942 B-17 would run $258,949 plus 4x$9,000 (4 Wright Cyclones), for a total of $294,949 (or thereabouts)

 

[marathag]

The table shows airframe costs withOUT engines, correct? So, a 1942 B-17 would run $258,949 plus 4x$9,000 (4 Wright Cyclones), for a total of $294,949 (or thereabouts)

maybe more, I believe the Turbos, Props, Radio and bombsight were all GSE as well

 

[PhilKearny]

found this period document from end of the War documenting changes over the year
View attachment 709447
Came across that the Hawk75 cost for $23,000
Other part to get a total cost, is the GSE costs, like guns, radios and engines.
The Allison was$18k, Packard built Merlin $20k, the R-1830 $11k, R-1820 $9k R-2600 $16k and R-2800 $18k in addition to the above

Pratt & Whitney, dollar for dollar, your best aero engine deal.