Es Geloybte Aretz - a Germanwank

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by carlton_bach, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. Richter von Manthofen Gnome Fighter Ace

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    I think one should stop thinking of jews as a separate nation. Jews are for a large part feeling as Austrians, Germans, Frenchmen - especially if they are halfway educated, prosperous and well treated... Well those are probably a little tricky, but with the jewish troops fighting FOR Germany (and Poland) jews should gradually be treated better compared to OTL. Jews will hold NO love for russia, so in territories with a nominally "russian" majority the jews will swing the balance in Polands favor.

    Or is there a jewish state coming online ;) :D
     
  2. HanEmpire Delicious

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    Wait did Dreyfus Affair happen here?
     
  3. Tyr Anazasi Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it did. But I don't know the details anymore.
     
  4. Zmflavius Data Gremlin

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    That may well be, but the point remains nonetheless, the events of the war have served to make the European Jews more distinct as a nation from the rest of Europe, not less--martial success in the war, and ethnic and religious conflict, has in Germany and Poland both contributed to an upsurge in Jewish nationalism. I expect they will be on balance pro-Polish, but, importantly, not "[Catholic] Polish" Polish. This, of course, is accentuated by how under Polish law, Jews will be under the administration of a different corpus of social laws than Catholic Poles.

    Dreyfus was released shortly before the war began in June 1906, under the Clemenceau government. Other than that, he has not been mentioned.
     
  5. Kvasir We shall overcome #EU

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    Looking at the borders, and the OTL Russian Empire Census, I would guess that Poles are a majority. Would be interesting to see if Poles from Germany and Austria decide to move to the new Poland.
     
  6. carlton_bach Member

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    They will be once they're done defining who is a Pole. But it won't be comfortable or pacific.
     
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  7. carlton_bach Member

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    He's retired. Not interested in publicity of any kind, either.

    Some will, but nowhere near as many as the architrects of the new Mittreleuropa are hoping
     
  8. yboxman Well-Known Member

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    According to the 1897 census, The Russian Empire had 7.93 million Poles, and only 5.88 million byelourussians. Almost all of the former will be in "Poland", whereas only about 60% of the latter will be (and many, I assume, will be classified as "local"), not taking into account expulsions by the Poles (or forced relocation into the interior by the Russian themselves as occurred during the great retreat in 1915 OTL). Probably a bit under 2 million Jews live in the areas of this "Poland" will include in 1907, not taking into account those who died at the hand of the PU, I vaguely recall Carlton Bach being in the tens of thousand range (analogous to those killed by the Whites in the RCW OTL) in all of the Russian Empire. There are also 200-300 thousand Germans and a hundred thousand or so Lithuanians.

    So unless EVERY Jew in The Russian Empire relocates into TTL's Poland (and those in Ruthenia, Lithuania and the Baltics where almost half of the remainder live presumably have no reason to do so), the Poles are still a bare majority.

    What is the demographic breakdown in the immediate postwar period? How many Belarusian's are expelled or flee and how many Jews make it into Poland and the other Liberated buffer states from the Russian Empire?

    Given a more limited "Great War" and the absence of a successful red revolution is the U.S still going to impose immigration restrictions?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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  9. Stendhal Well-Known Member

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    Vitebsk held 52% Jewish population pre-war OTL.
     
  10. yboxman Well-Known Member

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    Among them Chagall. Wonder what happened with him TTL. He moved to St.Petersburg in 1906 OTL when he was 20, but I guess that isn't too likely TTL.

    For that matter I wonder where most of Vitbesk's Jews end up. Do Lithuania and Ruthenia also recognize Jews as a semi-autonomous national group and take in Jewish refugees from Russia proper or is this something that the Jews of Poland alone were able to secure?
     
  11. Stendhal Well-Known Member

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    Carlton kind of hinted at a "Sherlock Holmes of Vitebsk" case so I will not speculate yet.
     
  12. Josephus Well-Known Member

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    So, possibly more of a "Shylock Holmes"?
     
  13. carlton_bach Member

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    Berlin, 08 October 1908


     
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  14. JohnOfNottingham Well-Known Member

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    Goltz aiming at some sort of coup?

    Also, wooo, new chapter.
     
  15. carlton_bach Member

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    Coup would be saying too much. Maneuvering into place for the postwar reality. A man has to know who his friends are, and the alliance at the top was always uneasy.
     
  16. Zmflavius Data Gremlin

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    Laying the ground for the forthcoming "Conservative Revolution"?

    Honestly, I'm a bit surprised to learn that Von der Goltz would be palling about with Hugenbergmedia and such, but not too surprised.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
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  17. Shevek23 Spherical Cow-poke

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    I have not ever researched Goltz OTL, knowing him solely from his portrayal here. I always figured based on that that he was flexibly minded and a fairly good match for the young Kaiser in his interests, and would follow the Kaiser's lead in opening his mind to the virtues of the lower classes and their different but commendable forms of loyalty to Kaiser and Reich. And thus, he would not be too terribly alarmed at the rise of more populist factions. No Smedley Butler perhaps, but anyway an astute Eisenhower type--not a MacArthur or worse.

    Since anyone who remembers my earliest comments knows I overestimated the Kaiser's liberalism, I shouldn't be too shocked to learn that, if not the stupidest and most reactionary type politically, he remains a Junker. But I am disappointed in him, and I ought to read up OTL to know just how far off the mark I was.
     
  18. CaliGuy Well-Known Member

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    Please keep in mind that the 1897 Russian census appears to have been biased against Poles (especially in the Vilnius area):

    https://books.google.com/books?id=e...#v=onepage&q=1897 russia census poles&f=false

    Also, if it's not too much to ask, would it be possible for someone to make a map of the current geopolitical situation in this TL?
     
  19. carlton_bach Member

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    Von der Goltz IOTL was the brains behind the doctrine of Volkskrieg, the idea that nations, not armies, fight wars and that all of Germany needed to be made fit for all-out war effort. He supported right-wing populism (that was one of the reasons he was not considered for more senior positions) and dictatorship, but also meritocracy and a paternalistic welfare state. And he hated Socialism and liberalism. I may not have made this clear enough, but he's a major asshole - a good guy, not a nice guy.

    In his mind, he is doing the emperor a favour: He's defending Germany against those that would destroy its national spirit and moral fibre. He spent the last few decades watching as the Social Democrats went from an insignificant illegal club to the most influential party in the state, and he understands the advantages of organisation and compromise. Unless he can create a bloc like that on the right, the future of Germany will be determined between the two organised mass political parties: Zentrum and SPD. And they are both inimical to the Germany he serves.

    ITTL he is not exactly a fan of the Hugenberg press, but it's the best fit there is: Ullstein is liberal, pro-Jewish and reformist, the Vorwärts and affiliates are Socialist, and the Catholic publishers are all vocally anti-Prussian. The dwindling traditional conservative press has practically no readership outside the nobility and civil service, and has already suffered predatpry takeovers from Hugenberg. So he is going to alingn his resources with the nascent völkische organisation, confident that this will be enough to bring down any future democratic, Socialist, or anti-German parties.
     
  20. avernite Well-Known Member

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    Plus he probably figures that if he steps in he can steer and contain the Volkische press, in support of Juncker and Prussia, rather than see them run away into some kind of fascistoid populist mass movement opposed to the entire establishment-as-is.

    And given your hints in the past, he might even be able to set up a nice Juncker dictatorship with Volkisch backing.