Es Geloybte Aretz - a Germanwank

[Dolf]

Hurra

 

[Knightmare]

Ah, the old "If you flee the border, nothing I can do about it" dealio.

 

[Athelstane]

Yes. Not deliberate as such, there just aren't that many second-order towns with railway connections in southern Poland.

But it's a nice coincidence, in connection with allegations of "atrocities" in your timeline here just the same.

 

[JohnOfNottingham]

It has been a long time, Carlton, how are things, these days?

Interesting chapter, of course. Apparently the polish authorities want to bring before tribunals the makers of atrocities, while some of the lower ranks are not quite as willing...

 

[Ritos]

Great to have you back Carlton!

 

[carlton_bach]

It has been a long time, Carlton, how are things, these days?

Very, very busy. My wife is happy and recovered well, the older kids are welcoming the new addition to the family, the baby is healthy and incredibly energetic, but there is only so much one can do on an indefinite ration of 5-6 hours of sleep a night. I divide my time between parenting, household chores, work, translation jobs and culinary history blog posts for the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery. Not much is left for writing, though this long weekend I have some time.

Interesting chapter, of course. Apparently the polish authorities want to bring before tribunals the makers of atrocities, while some of the lower ranks are not quite as willing...

The Austrians are willing to follow up these charges (at least for form's sake - they had no intention of sentencing anyone who is important). The Poles take a more robust attitude to atrocities. Of course, Zorn is a hero to the Jewish authorities in Lodz - once he makes it there, he's not going to stand trial. They'd fight the whole k.u.k. army before surrendering their guest of honour. Another issue that will become awkward in future years, btw.

 

[JohnOfNottingham]

Very, very busy. My wife is happy and recovered well, the older kids are welcoming the new addition to the family, the baby is healthy and incredibly energetic, but there is only so much one can do on an indefinite ration of 5-6 hours of sleep a night. I divide my time between parenting, household chores, work, translation jobs and culinary history blog posts for the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery. Not much is left for writing, though this long weekend I have some time.

So quite well, mostly, good to hear. And hey, possibility of more writing being done this weekend, I wouldn't complain about that either.

The Austrians are willing to follow up these charges (at least for form's sake - they had no intention of sentencing anyone who is important). The Poles take a more robust attitude to atrocities. Of course, Zorn is a hero to the Jewish authorities in Lodz - once he makes it there, he's not going to stand trial. They'd fight the whole k.u.k. army before surrendering their guest of honour. Another issue that will become awkward in future years, btw.

Oh, of course, I managed to forget that Galicia is still Austrian... It's been too long. Yes, the poles being less prosecuting (and defensive against it) makes sense.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Great to see that this is back and that your family is well.

 

[carlton_bach]

The Bosporus, 21 September 1908

The fez still felt out of place, Souchon Pasha decided. On bridge duty, he always wore his peaked cap, anyway, so familiarity had not done anything to blunt the sense of oddness that the formal headgear of his new Ottoman rank inspired in him. It sat all wrong. Talat Pasha, standing next to him resplendent in an army uniform jacket covered almost completely in gold braid, tried hard not to notice the fidgeting of his ever-victorious admiral, recipient of the Order of Medjidieh and hero of the Empire as they awaited their hour of triumph.


To the spectators that lined the shores, the picture must have seemed incongruous. Ageing Ottoman warships, mast tops flying the sultan’s colours, their obsolete main guns carefully kept unloaded to prevent any mishaps when the time for the salute came, stood out to sea, surrounded by sleek German cruisers and destroyers, grey, fast and low in the water. The entire assemblage seemed designed to do anything but impress, especially spread out in the widening mouth of the Straits, and particularly in contrast with the approaching fleet. Steaming in line astern, battleships Rostislav, Georgi Pobedonostets, Potemkin, Dvenadsat Apostolov and Evstafi approached, attended by a swarm of secondary vessels – cruisers, torpedo boats, gunboats and tenders, keeping position behind the great beasts they served. They came at low speed – Potemkin still bore the scars of the German minefield that had claimed Tria Svitatelia and so badly shocked their admiral. Yet even so, they were infinitely more impressive than the fleet of the victors. An uninformed observer might conclude they were coming as triumphant claimants to free passage, realising the dream of generations of Czars. Certainly, nothing suggested their humiliation. Souchon had carefully avoided any suggestion of escorting the vessels to their anchorages. The comparison between his ragtag force and the Russians’ mighty fleet would have been too invidious.


Souchon Pasha shaded his eyes against the sun and strained to see whether everything went according to instructions. The ships had skeleton crews – not enough to man the guns in case someone decided to go out in a blaze of glory – and ran at low speed, with only one or two of their boilers fired. This was when they would turn to take position athwart of each other and drop anchor to lower the Russian flags and take on their new Ottoman crews.


“Are they slowing?” Talat Pasha asked worriedly.


Souchon looked again, then passed the question to his signaller. They seemed to be slowing, but it was hard to tell from this angle.


“Lookout reports:” the ensign stood ramrod straight, saluting, “the Russian ships are slowing, but not fast enough. Crew is on the deck. They seem to be waving – flags. Banners.”


“Banners?” Souchon gestured for a telescope. As soon as it was fitted to the mount, he waved the signaller away and peered through himself. Indeed, the men were on deck, crowding around some kind of banners. Icons, he decided. They were the icons and flags carried by their priests. Well, if he was Russian, he’d be praying, too. But praying wasn’t what they were supposed to do at all. The ships were already losing formation. Was the helmsman also on his knees? Carefully, he scanned the length of Rostislav, the lead ship. The mighty steel hull wallowed heavily, like a wounded whale. Water was already lapping at the lowest row of portholes.


“The bastards are scuttling.”


“What?” Talat Pasha stared at him in uncomprehending horror.


“They have opened the seacocks. The Russian ships are sinking. At least, the battleships are. It takes a while with a vessel this size.” Souchon felt a shiver run down his spine. To do that to your ship – your home, your pride, your family – took conviction. He was watching the end of a fleet that would rather die than suffer the disgrace of surrender. Millions of gold marks – the navy budget of years – sent to the bottom of the Black Sea. On the main deck, camera crews had set up to record the historic moment. He hoped they were getting good pictures.


Around the larboard side of the bridge, where Talat Pasha stood, a fierce debate in Turkish erupted. Men in navy uniforms and frock coats scrambled for the railing to see for themselves. Some of them had been scheduled to take command of the very ships they were now watching as they came to their slow, unavoidable end. The Russians began to lower boats now. Souchon felt unsure whether this was necessary – the coastal areas could be quite shallow here, and even a sunk battleship might still have most of its upperworks above water – but they certainly made a concerted effort. Looking at the chart, he realised they knew what they were doing. The battlefleet was on a course parallel to the shore, in deep water. Beyond recovery.


Every eye was glued to the leviathans slowly settling into the grey sea, but it was the small vessels – the torpedo boats and gunboats – that went down first. They filled much faster, and their shallow draught didn’t require any planning for their scuttling site. Russian flags still flying from masttops, the sleek hulls slid under the waves, water extinguishing the breath of their engines in white plumes rising like the fountains of broaching whales. Boats, rafts and pieces of debris dotted the surface. Potemkin was beginning to roll over sideways, exposing its wounded belly to the sun. Sailors crawled around on it like ants.


“Poor bastards.” The signaller said under his breath.


“Verdammte Scheisse” Souchon murmured.


Talat Pasha snapped at his aides. Signal flags went up on the mast of the flagship as he turned to Souchon. “Admiral” he said in French, his anger barely suppressed, “make for the port of Constantinople. There is nothing left for us to do here.”


“What about…?” Souchon gestured towards the sinking fleet.


“They have chosen their port of destination. Let them go ashore in it.”


Souchon scanned the coast. Fishermen were already rowing and sailing out in their small craft, converging on the boats and debris that marked the graveyard of Russia’s naval pride. Four hours to sunset, an hour’s rowing to reach them… it would not be enough for everyone. But they would get most ashore, the admiral decided. They would go to prison for breaching the terms of the armistice, of course. He could not help himself casting an admiring glance at them nonetheless.


“Officer of the watch: Signal the squadron to follow, lay a return course for Constantinople.“


Writing today’s despatches would be a night’s worth of work

goodnight everyone

 

[Faeelin]

Glad to see this back, but even gladder to hear you're doing well.

 

[Athelstane]

A nice nod to Scapa Flow.

 

[B_Munro]

IT'S ALIVE!!!

 

[J. de Vos]

Those sailors have balls!

Welcome back by the way.

 

[Obfuscated]

I'd half expected the Turks to open fire on the pirates/traitors.

It isn't as if the Russian can say "They were acting on our orders, they are neither pirates or traitors" without admitting to dishonoring the Armistice intentionally, in a very insulting manner (They might as well have scuttled out of sight but in sight of the reception comittee... that is extra insulting)

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Oh, as these ships are technically still Russian property, nobody can be blamed doing so. That means, however, the Ottomans can demand cash for the ships.

 

[Shevek23]

Oh, as these ships are technically still Russian property, nobody can be blamed doing so. That means, however, the Ottomans can demand cash for the ships.

And assuming they get the cash--which is dubious of course, Russia would not have surrendered if their economy could easily be squeezed for such sums of money--well, assuming the Ottomans wanted the naval capacity that sunk fleet represented, they have to apply the money to building new ships. Which, trading off tonnage for the most advanced tech, would be shiny new state of the art ships, in a historic moment when the world, exhausted by the recent struggle and deterred from grandiose war plans by its terrible example, will probably not be in an arms race for some decades, so they'd be a good buy.

And where to make the new fleet? Will Germany as the patron of the Ottomans favor developing Ottoman shipyards? Insist that the ships be constructed at German yards on the Baltic or North Sea? Or finance the operation at an Austro-Hungarian yard at Trieste or Pola? Split it between all three?

The Germans can give the Ottomans credit for their eventual reparations payment from Russia--which might never come of course, not in full anyway.

Or the Ottomans can take the nominal reparations sum, in the form of German credit, and divert some or all of it to other infrastructural purposes; they could reason they need to modernize the army more than upgrade the navy for instance. Not sure which I would advise--a strong navy, at this point, is aimed more at the western European powers, including potentially AH and Germany, also Britain and France and perhaps most reasonably, Italy, who just stole Libya while the Western Great powers stood back and watched. When Russia resurges as author prophecy assures us it will, the naval threat from the Black sea ports will be tremendous--but so will the land army threat around the sea, in the Caucasus and on the western shore via Romania and Bulgaria, which could be conquered or allied with Russia. The Russian threat by sea is remote and speculative, but the colossal power's land borne threat remains serious for the Ottomans. Had the Sultan possessed a large and modernized army, his lack of effective naval assets might not have mattered in the Libya affair, if sufficiently strong land defenses existed there. Or might have been fatal if his armies were more than adequate but not stationed in sufficient numbers in Libya, and he could not transport them there because European-held Egypt and Sudan blocked their landward routes and Italian naval power interdicted deployment overseas.

The Sultanate is allied to Germany and AH now, and any schemes from European powers any less strong than Britain to try to whittle it down further need to consider the risks involved in Germany mobilizing against them--but against that, the Germans traded off their interest in Ottoman friendship easily enough the last time ("secret" treaty my foot--if the Sultan's authorities can't prove the treaty with Italy existed, they can bloody well suspect it, and being correct in their suspicions, nothing will cause them to doubt their guess). Will they risk a war at least as devastating as their last bout with Russia, against Britain that controls access to global resources and has no landward frontiers to be overrun, over the rights of the Muslim Sultanate? Will they risk a war with France, which they can win to be sure, but only at the cost of terrible bloodletting and general devastation on both sides, especially if Britain might ally with France in such a struggle?

I'm not even sure I have been right to refer to the current Ottoman regime as "Sultanate;" a Young-turk type coup has happened, and in fact it is sort of a military oligarchy I gather. But IIRC the Sultan still nominally reigns, and this means the polity, ramshackle, rickety and torn by local separatisms as it is, still has the glue of claiming to be a Sunni Caliphate of sorts to help hold it together. If the mostly Turkish junta has the diplomacy to keep diverse nationalities on side with suitable small concessions and a show of inclusion, they are in a stronger position than a nominally Turkish nationalism to keep control over Mesopotamia and the northern reaches of Arabia, probably the Red Sea shore including Mecca. The Persian Gulf is probably a dead loss, to British influence, but they retain a foothold on it, and a good chunk of major oil producing lands--they can't monopolize it, but they can claim a good share of the oil boom, and via northern Levantine holdings (if the French don't manage to deny them) pipeline it to the Mediterranean market.

The German alliance, dubious though it might seem to Ottomans bitter over the loss of Libya, remains a thing to consider in London and Paris. What the Sultanate has lost in the Persian Gulf and other peripheries, is probably gone for good, but if German investors are profiting from the development of major parts of Ottoman territory they will urge the German and Austrian states to stand firm for Ottoman rights to what they have thus far managed to retain. Mesopotamia in particular, once oil is found there anyway, seems likely to be firmly defended, and for an intelligent and flexible regime in Constantinople to hit upon ways of retaining sufficient loyalty of, especially if German advisors are astute and intelligent too.

As I've said before, my theory is that the dominant conventional wisdom in Germany is that both Austria-Hungary and Turkey should be kept as viable empires, even if it would be possible and perhaps short-term more advantageous seeming to let them disintegrate and concentrate on fragments as spoils. I think that military and diplomatic officials would rather see both remain unified, to keep relations relatively simple and to gain tremendous scope for allied operations, and that commercial big players would prefer to keep relations simple as well, and flexible, being able to descend on any random point with investments and development schemes, without having to manipulate a dozen or more regional governments.

If the two southern empires can hold at their current boundaries, and develop enough that they are more assets than liability for German investors, then not only will Germany prosper--and under the German hegemony, substantial numbers of AH and Ottoman subjects as well--but strategically her military forces can be deployed across a really vast global sweep, including out of the Persian Gulf.

Therefore I suspect the Germans will back up the Ottomans against Russia regarding this latest outrage.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

And assuming they get the cash--which is dubious of course, Russia would not have surrendered if their economy could easily be squeezed for such sums of money--well, assuming the Ottomans wanted the naval capacity that sunk fleet represented, they have to apply the money to building new ships. Which, trading off tonnage for the most advanced tech, would be shiny new state of the art ships, in a historic moment when the world, exhausted by the recent struggle and deterred from grandiose war plans by its terrible example, will probably not be in an arms race for some decades, so they'd be a good buy.

And where to make the new fleet? Will Germany as the patron of the Ottomans favor developing Ottoman shipyards? Insist that the ships be constructed at German yards on the Baltic or North Sea? Or finance the operation at an Austro-Hungarian yard at Trieste or Pola? Split it between all three?

The Germans can give the Ottomans credit for their eventual reparations payment from Russia--which might never come of course, not in full anyway.

Or the Ottomans can take the nominal reparations sum, in the form of German credit, and divert some or all of it to other infrastructural purposes; they could reason they need to modernize the army more than upgrade the navy for instance. Not sure which I would advise--a strong navy, at this point, is aimed more at the western European powers, including potentially AH and Germany, also Britain and France and perhaps most reasonably, Italy, who just stole Libya while the Western Great powers stood back and watched. When Russia resurges as author prophecy assures us it will, the naval threat from the Black sea ports will be tremendous--but so will the land army threat around the sea, in the Caucasus and on the western shore via Romania and Bulgaria, which could be conquered or allied with Russia. The Russian threat by sea is remote and speculative, but the colossal power's land borne threat remains serious for the Ottomans. Had the Sultan possessed a large and modernized army, his lack of effective naval assets might not have mattered in the Libya affair, if sufficiently strong land defenses existed there. Or might have been fatal if his armies were more than adequate but not stationed in sufficient numbers in Libya, and he could not transport them there because European-held Egypt and Sudan blocked their landward routes and Italian naval power interdicted deployment overseas.

The Sultanate is allied to Germany and AH now, and any schemes from European powers any less strong than Britain to try to whittle it down further need to consider the risks involved in Germany mobilizing against them--but against that, the Germans traded off their interest in Ottoman friendship easily enough the last time ("secret" treaty my foot--if the Sultan's authorities can't prove the treaty with Italy existed, they can bloody well suspect it, and being correct in their suspicions, nothing will cause them to doubt their guess). Will they risk a war at least as devastating as their last bout with Russia, against Britain that controls access to global resources and has no landward frontiers to be overrun, over the rights of the Muslim Sultanate? Will they risk a war with France, which they can win to be sure, but only at the cost of terrible bloodletting and general devastation on both sides, especially if Britain might ally with France in such a struggle?

I'm not even sure I have been right to refer to the current Ottoman regime as "Sultanate;" a Young-turk type coup has happened, and in fact it is sort of a military oligarchy I gather. But IIRC the Sultan still nominally reigns, and this means the polity, ramshackle, rickety and torn by local separatisms as it is, still has the glue of claiming to be a Sunni Caliphate of sorts to help hold it together. If the mostly Turkish junta has the diplomacy to keep diverse nationalities on side with suitable small concessions and a show of inclusion, they are in a stronger position than a nominally Turkish nationalism to keep control over Mesopotamia and the northern reaches of Arabia, probably the Red Sea shore including Mecca. The Persian Gulf is probably a dead loss, to British influence, but they retain a foothold on it, and a good chunk of major oil producing lands--they can't monopolize it, but they can claim a good share of the oil boom, and via northern Levantine holdings (if the French don't manage to deny them) pipeline it to the Mediterranean market.

The German alliance, dubious though it might seem to Ottomans bitter over the loss of Libya, remains a thing to consider in London and Paris. What the Sultanate has lost in the Persian Gulf and other peripheries, is probably gone for good, but if German investors are profiting from the development of major parts of Ottoman territory they will urge the German and Austrian states to stand firm for Ottoman rights to what they have thus far managed to retain. Mesopotamia in particular, once oil is found there anyway, seems likely to be firmly defended, and for an intelligent and flexible regime in Constantinople to hit upon ways of retaining sufficient loyalty of, especially if German advisors are astute and intelligent too.

As I've said before, my theory is that the dominant conventional wisdom in Germany is that both Austria-Hungary and Turkey should be kept as viable empires, even if it would be possible and perhaps short-term more advantageous seeming to let them disintegrate and concentrate on fragments as spoils. I think that military and diplomatic officials would rather see both remain unified, to keep relations relatively simple and to gain tremendous scope for allied operations, and that commercial big players would prefer to keep relations simple as well, and flexible, being able to descend on any random point with investments and development schemes, without having to manipulate a dozen or more regional governments.

If the two southern empires can hold at their current boundaries, and develop enough that they are more assets than liability for German investors, then not only will Germany prosper--and under the German hegemony, substantial numbers of AH and Ottoman subjects as well--but strategically her military forces can be deployed across a really vast global sweep, including out of the Persian Gulf.

Therefore I suspect the Germans will back up the Ottomans against Russia regarding this latest outrage.

Nothing to add.

 

[Athelstane]

And where to make the new fleet? Will Germany as the patron of the Ottomans favor developing Ottoman shipyards?

I doubt that even the Ottomans will favor developing Ottoman shipyards.

Easier to order hulls from shipyards in the UK and Germany. The Turks have more pressing infrastructure needs. And, for that matter - military needs.

Probably all they can justify now is a modest coastal defense force. They have no chance of building a fleet that would be competitive with Italy or Austria, let alone France or Britain. If they're really dying for capital ships (and for prestige, they will likely want at least one or two, just as happened in OTL), the Germans would likely be willing to pawn off a couple old pre-dreadnoughts on them. I doubt it would be worth it for the Turks.

 

[Knightmare]

I'd half expected the Turks to open fire on the pirates/traitors.

It isn't as if the Russian can say "They were acting on our orders, they are neither pirates or traitors" without admitting to dishonoring the Armistice intentionally, in a very insulting manner (They might as well have scuttled out of sight but in sight of the reception comittee... that is extra insulting)

Issue is, they're all ready for a surrender ceremony.

They'd have to rush to GQ, draw up bearings, fire.....

And remember, they want the ships intact. Which is a issue, as you need to get your ship in, get a DC party over, undo the scuttling dealios (Which if it's like Scapa Flow, won't be easy), which is where the "fun" begins.

Even if we assume the Russians don't open fire on the approaching ship, they got zero qualms delaying the DC party, violently or otherwise. So now they're having to fight their way into the ship, probably having to cut through a lot of watertight doors, in a dark confusing ship that's oh yes, let's not forget, sinking to the bottom, which kinda has knockon effects for moving around.

And then, assuming they get down to the valves without the ship being flooded too much, they gotta find the valves, which you know the Russians went and threw over the side or in some other impossible to access place, slap 'em back on, and then pump out the ship.

TL/DR: Too long a time, and nobody was prepped for it.

 

[Athelstane]

TL/DR: Too long a time, and nobody was prepped for it.

If the Royal Navy couldn't stop the High Seas Fleet from scuttling in 1919 in OTL - when they had a fair idea it might be coming - there's no way in heck that the Ottoman fleet will be able to do anything at all in this timeline, in 1908. Nothing except watch on in frustration.