Es Geloybte Aretz - a Germanwank

[wietze]

agree there, napoleon was mostly a child of his time. and the colony robbing (from their allies) british really weren't any better.

now robespierre thats a criminal.

 

[The Blue-Eyed Infidel]

Oh yes, it will. This is going to be one of the greatest headaches of the war and the reason Britain is going to be Europe's kingmaker. Unlike in OTL, though, Wilhelm is aware of the problem.

It's Germanwank, not German-multi-tentacle-dick-hentai.

Fair enough, although IMO, there is less of a technological leap required to get an industrial scale Haber-Bosch plant in operation in time to affect the course of the upcoming war than there is to get tanks in production by the same time.

Haber is already looking at this by this time OTL, and if Wilhelm - or the General Staff - are aware of the implications, a lot of money could be thrown at this; unlike some of the toys that Wilhelm loves and Falkenhayn is investigating, no one in the army will need convincing of the utility of a nitrate supply that is not dependent upon imports.

Speaking of Haber, what are the status of the Hague conventions ITTL? Will poison gas be used in the upcoming war?

TB-EI

 

[Monty Burns]

Speaking of Haber, what are the status of the Hague conventions ITTL? Will poison gas be used in the upcoming war?

Probably trench warfare will begin early on on the German-French border (and as pointed out maybe in Belgium as well). Now that will be as costly to both sides as IOTL. France has its territory not occupied - but its trade is blockaded, nobody is giving loans and there's no expeditionary corps helping in the trenches. France will soon be breaking IMHO. Maybe even before gas is introduced. If not, I expect Germany to introduce it first as IOTL due to its chemical industry. Left alone, that could trigger the break of France.

 

[wietze]

Probably trench warfare will begin early on on the German-French border (and as pointed out maybe in Belgium as well). Now that will be as costly to both sides as IOTL. France has its territory not occupied - but its trade is blockaded, nobody is giving loans and there's no expeditionary corps helping in the trenches. France will soon be breaking IMHO. Maybe even before gas is introduced. If not, I expect Germany to introduce it first as IOTL due to its chemical industry. Left alone, that could trigger the break of France.

And another thought, the Netherlands was pro-German in this period, and with the Germans and the British on the same side, there is no reason for the Netherlands to hold back when it feels threatened by a french invasion of Belgium. Especially as it could be of strategic importance in the transport of British soldiers to the french front.

 

[Eurofed]

Probably trench warfare will begin early on on the German-French border (and as pointed out maybe in Belgium as well). Now that will be as costly to both sides as IOTL. France has its territory not occupied - but its trade is blockaded, nobody is giving loans and there's no expeditionary corps helping in the trenches. France will soon be breaking IMHO. Maybe even before gas is introduced. If not, I expect Germany to introduce it first as IOTL due to its chemical industry. Left alone, that could trigger the break of France.

Looking at the Italian side of things, Italy doesn't really stand a chance of accomplishing much on the Alpine front, at least not until France starts to break. Moreover, they would have a serious forces surplus sitting on their hands, you can deploy only so many people on the Western Alps.

Rome would not be much interested in sending a major expeditionary corps on the Eastern Front - at least not without being promised due compensation in the peace settlement, such as a few French colonies besides the obvious irredenta claims.

However, even IOTL there were Triple Alliance standing protocols to deploy Italian troops (the forces surplus I mentioned) in Alsace-Lorraine in case of war with France. They can adopt that option.

This would free up German troops to increase the pressure on Russia, and/or possibly cover Belgium against a French invasion.

In passing, I note that a French violation of Belgian neutrality would have a very high likelihood of causing a Dutch intervention and arousing a stiff resistance by the Flemish at least.

In the meanwhile, A-H may throw the bulk of its undivided strength against Russia, except what may be needed to protect the southern border against surprises by Serbia, if it gets funny ideas (unsure if ITTL the 1903 coup that made Serbia turn Pan-Slavist and pro-Russian occurred or not). And Britain manages the blockade of France and fights Russia in Persia and Central Asia.

 

[carlton_bach]

Fair enough, although IMO, there is less of a technological leap required to get an industrial scale Haber-Bosch plant in operation in time to affect the course of the upcoming war than there is to get tanks in production by the same time.

Haber is already looking at this by this time OTL, and if Wilhelm - or the General Staff - are aware of the implications, a lot of money could be thrown at this; unlike some of the toys that Wilhelm loves and Falkenhayn is investigating, no one in the army will need convincing of the utility of a nitrate supply that is not dependent upon imports.

It is unwise to underestimate the stupidity of the Prussian officer corps. that said, they are interested in Haber-Bosch, but are currently going on the assumption that their treaty with Britain is what secures their access to vital war stocks. So, no high-speed research, but some discretionary money going that way.

The big problem for Wilhelm's ideas of technological war is really that he hasn't had the time to leave a big imprint yet. Albert is a navy man, and he left him a spanking new, highly effective fleet. His army is good, but largely still the old Prussian one with the other countries' forces tacked on. He has done his bit of shaking up things, introducing armoured cars and G-trucks, pushing mortars and the divide into heavy and light infantry, geeking over airships and machine rifles, and founding his research office, but the effect has, as yet, been small. The innovations are just beginning to trickle through. Even machine guns are not yet as comon as they are supposed to be. A few years is a short time for turning around something that big.

Speaking of Haber, what are the status of the Hague conventions ITTL? Will poison gas be used in the upcoming war?

Despite the fact that there would have to be some difference, I'm going on the assumption that something closely analogous to the Hague conference happened and the convention was signed more or less as written (where it matters, I will simply refer to OTL's version). Poison gas is outlawed, but nobody much cares. The German military has a research programme dedicated to it. So do other nations.

 

[carlton_bach]

(unsure if ITTL the 1903 coup that made Serbia turn Pan-Slavist and pro-Russian occurred or not).

I'm going on the assumption that it happened. Serbia is in the Russian camp.

 

[Monty Burns]

Looking at the Italian side of things, Italy doesn't really stand a chance of accomplishing much on the Alpine front, at least not until France starts to break. Moreover, they would have a serious forces surplus sitting on their hands, you can deploy only so many people on the Western Alps.

Naturally, I don't expect the Italians to march on Lyon within weeks. But they'd deploy considerable forces in the Western Alps - and the French therefore have to do the same and supply them. On the small coastal strip, there'll be normal trench warfare. Even if the Italians don't manage a breakthrough, that should bind significant French troops and supplies that are lacking in whatever happens in the North. That'll be the Italian part.

In any case, that Alpine war with a much longer frontline in the mountains will be really ugly.

Colonies could be another theatre - but I guess the British will handle that pretty much on their own.

Rome would not be much interested in sending a major expeditionary corps on the Eastern Front - at least not without being promised due compensation in the peace settlement, such as a few French colonies besides the obvious irredenta claims.

Given OTL Italian war efforts, they'll be busy with the Alps. Add something in Corsica, maybe in the Balkans and them trying hard to participate in British colonial things and there's no room for further expeditionary forces.

In passing, I note that a French violation of Belgian neutrality would have a very high likelihood of causing a Dutch intervention and arousing a stiff resistance by the Flemish at least.

As I said, France violating Belgian neutrality only makes sense if they push for the Ruhr. And to do that effectively they'd have to violate Dutch neutrality as well. At the moment the Belgian invasion starts, the Dutch will expect exactly this.

In the meanwhile, A-H may throw the bulk of its undivided strength against Russia, except what may be needed to protect the southern border against surprises by Serbia, if it gets funny ideas (unsure if ITTL the 1903 coup that made Serbia turn Pan-Slavist and pro-Russian occurred or not).

I guess Serbia is in. If not, I wouldn't be surprised if AH takes some preventive action (good opportunity for that). Otherwise, AH will fight only against Russia. Soon together with the Romanians, but trying to avoid as much as possible the free Poles...

And Britain manages the blockade of France and fights Russia in Persia and Central Asia.

I doubt that Britain would do much fighting against Russia aside from naval action. Persia is possible, but Central Asia will hardly see much troops deployed.

I think the British will handle all naval affaires, help in some amphibious maneuvers (Baltic islands at a later date, Corsica probably rather early, colonies) and pick up one French colony after the other - probably they'll have no interest in their Allies participating in that. Something along the lines of the Napoleonic wars: Britain pays, Britain sails, Britain takes whatever colony there is.

 

[carlton_bach]

04 February 1906, Lublin

“I wish I could see Yossel's face now.” Shloimo Ferber exclaimed. “I kept telling him, a Yid can be a general!”

Marek Shulman, another veteran of the Radun defense, smiled and tactfully neglected to mention that he had said it could happen in America. Anyway, Poland was fine with everyone involved. Better than America, in fact. Better to fight defending your homes and families than to go after Red Indians on the great desert, or whatever it was American soldiers did these days. Shulman had brought the message from Warsaw himself. “Well then, Brigadier General Ferber,” he said, “you may have to visit him in uniform in Lodz.”

Ferber turned in front of the mirror once more. The new uniform was impressive, in a slightly idiosyncratic way. That was nothing unusual, of course. The NA had better things to do than standardise the uniform of its officers. While Ferber wore the epaulets and cuffs of a brigadier, he could get away with a multitude of sins otherwise, and many who had made their brief careers in the Polish rising were far worse sinners than he. His coat was plain, double-breasted in the French style, with a peaked cap rather than a kepi that looked incongruously Franco-German. The whole was blue, but so dark as to be almost black, and the gold thread contrasted beautifully. Jodhpurs and knee-high boots completed the appearance of a military man, though everyone knew that brigadier Ferber was not a natural horseman. Or an unnatural one, for that matter. Moving faster than a walk presented him with embarrassing problems, and the few lessons he had had time for only convinced him that equitation was not for him. In time, he would curse his riding boots.

“Maybe I should.”, he chuckled for a moment. Then his face darkened. “What am I to do with Yossel, anyway? It's not fair I should get this promotion. He did more for our unit than I.”

Lewin looked up and gruffly pointed out, “Neither of you should be getting those promotions. Baby colonels were bad enough, but brigadier? Calling that mob of ours a brigade is a poor attempt at Polish humour. Not a chance you're going to turn it down, though, is there?”

Ferber smiled indulgently. He was used to his advisor's roughshod ways. “Think of it this way,” he retorted. “If they can't give it to me, who will they give it to?”

“Put like that, you have a point.” Lewin agreed. “You're not a complete fool like some I've seen.” Coming from him, that was high praise.

The question what to do about Rabinovitz kept worrying Ferber. In the rough-and-ready way of the National Army, his brigadier's commission meant he now had leeway to fill his officer slots by and large as he saw fit. He would certainly be able to give his friend a colonelcy. Would he accept it, though? It might feel like a sop to quiet him, a condescending reward from unearned height. The newly minted gen eral weondered whether there might be a way of giving the men stationed in Lodz a greater degree of independence. The Polish government had commissioned its First Jewish Brigade. Perhaps they could find their way to allowing it an extra regiment? The men were there, Ferber mentally calculated. They had at least two thousand hopefuls awaiting instruction and equipment. Other units were far less discriinating in their intake than the Self-Defense Militia had been. And the First Jewish Brigade would continue to be, Ferber vowed. He wanted his men to fight well and stick together. Each other was all they had.

Outside the headquarters building, his colour guard was exercising unfamiliar evolutions. The new flag was lovely – a red-trimmed white banner with a blue star of David in the middle and the gold-embroidered unit title and number. Shloimo had not beenn able to resist the temptation to add unofficial battle honours: Radun, Lodz, Lublin. There was room for plenty more. And a side benefit of being a Jewish brigade was that they did not lack for competent tailors and embroiderers. As of yet, they were still using their white-and-blue armbands to iudentify themselves, but unit insignia were in the pipeline. It was a way of helping out, too. Lots of Jewish families had someone who earned money by sewing or embroidering. Giving them work helped.

 

[Eurofed]

Naturally, I don't expect the Italians to march on Lyon within weeks. But they'd deploy considerable forces in the Western Alps - and the French therefore have to do the same and supply them. On the small coastal strip, there'll be normal trench warfare. Even if the Italians don't manage a breakthrough, that should bind significant French troops and supplies that are lacking in whatever happens in the North. That'll be the Italian part.

In any case, that Alpine war with a much longer frontline in the mountains will be really ugly.

Yes, you are totally right about French overstretch, but please take into account that the Franco-Italian Alpine front is rather shorter than the Austrian-Italian Alpine one. So Italy is going to have more spare troops than OTL.

As a matter of fact, the German-Italian accords to deploy extra Italian forces in Alsace-Lorraine were made IOTL some time before WWI, when Italy, as a member of the Triple Alliance, did expect and plan to fight the kind of war we shall see ITTL (with a neutral instead of a CP Britain). So OTL German and Italian leaders expected to have a surplus of Italian troops after manning the Alpine front more than adequately, and realized that they would best used elsewhere. They would be wasted otherwise, especially if Germany won't or can't go on the offensive on the Western Front yet. Likewise, a German Western Front effort only makes sense if Italy attacks at the same time - France is only best defeated by overstretch and being bled white, since its theaters are the most difficult to break through in a trench warfare, barring German early tanks doing wonders. Hopefully, the British can do a few amphibious raids here and there, to add even more burden to the back of the French camel.

Colonies could be another theatre - but I guess the British will handle that pretty much on their own.

Given OTL Italian war efforts, they'll be busy with the Alps. Add something in Corsica, maybe in the Balkans and them trying hard to participate in British colonial things and there's no room for further expeditionary forces.

Hmm, not sure there would be a serious strategic point in conquering Corsica. Otherwise, Italy can and surely shall get it at the peace table. Yes, they can make a landing in Montenegro to backstab Serbia if/when A-H goes to the offensive, and they can also coordinate with the British to attack Tunisia and later Algeria.

As I said, France violating Belgian neutrality only makes sense if they push for the Ruhr. And to do that effectively they'd have to violate Dutch neutrality as well. At the moment the Belgian invasion starts, the Dutch will expect exactly this.

OK.

I guess Serbia is in. If not, I wouldn't be surprised if AH takes some preventive action (good opportunity for that). Otherwise, AH will fight only against Russia. Soon together with the Romanians, but trying to avoid as much as possible the free Poles...

Agreed.

I doubt that Britain would do much fighting against Russia aside from naval action. Persia is possible, but Central Asia will hardly see much troops deployed.

I think the British will handle all naval affaires, help in some amphibious maneuvers (Baltic islands at a later date, Corsica probably rather early, colonies) and pick up one French colony after the other - probably they'll have no interest in their Allies participating in that. Something along the lines of the Napoleonic wars: Britain pays, Britain sails, Britain takes whatever colony there is.

Surely, but I expect Germany and Italy to play some active role in the colonial theater, too. The former suffers no blockade, the latter has more spare troops than OTL and no restive Libya to mind, so both can do more in Africa than OTL. Britain can and surely shall pick several French colonies, but be mindful that at least a few among them are coveted by Germany and Italy and shall surely be claimed accordingly.

Anyway, even if TTL Britain doesn't go to the extreme degree of land effort it did in our WWI on the Western front and against Turkey, I very much doubt it can politically and strategically afford to do as very little land committment as it did in the Napoleonic Wars.

Conditions are very different now, this shall be an industrial total war, even if hopefully shorter/less destructive than OTL, and in order for Britain to have proper weight at the peace table, a sizable BEF shall have to fight and spill blood somewhere, be it in the Low Countries, Persia, or both, and not let the continental allies do absolutely all the real effort and heavy lifting. The time when "paying and sailing" could be enough is gone forever.

 

[Lord Insane]

Hm. Could someone point me to where it was confirmed that France will enter the war (given that it is entirely possible that Deroulede and the Ligueists will be out of government when the ball drops, and that it is very likely that the French government is at least vaguely aware that some form of agreement has been made between the British and the Germans)?

 

[Monty Burns]

Yes, you are totally right about French overstretch, but please take into account that the Franco-Italian Alpine front is rather shorter than the Austrian-Italian Alpine one. So Italy is going to have more spare troops than OTL.

Sorry then, my impression was that the Eastern half of the frontline in Friaul was not really Alpine and that Alpine warfare merely happened around South Tyrol - which I think would imply a smaller frontier.

Now if they have spare troops, the trenches in Lorraine will never see enough men...

Considering Corsica I think tha tthe Italians will voice an interest in that, the British will want to try the feasability of amphibious landings and holding Corsica makes a blockade of the French Mediterranean coast easier?

Hm. Could someone point me to where it was confirmed that France will enter the war (given that it is entirely possible that Deroulede and the Ligueists will be out of government when the ball drops, and that it is very likely that the French government is at least vaguely aware that some form of agreement has been made between the British and the Germans)?

We're just discussing on the premise of France entering the war. Before that last post about the Ligueists it seemed a lot more likely that France is in. With that new post, there's an increased likelihood that they won't enter.

Now if Russia attacks Germany and France remains neutral, the situation will be much different. My guess is that Germany finds a lot of allies besides Britain. Russia will soon find itself fighting along pretty much every frontier they have. The Germans ITTL will be greeted as liberators at least in Finland and Poland, probably even in the Baltics. Now would they continue from that at all?

If it's only against Russia, I expect a rather short war to liberate some border regions of Russia, whereas Russia itself falls back to an even greater chaos than now and probably sees a coup.

 

[Eurofed]

Sorry then, my impression was that the Eastern half of the frontline in Friaul was not really Alpine and that Alpine warfare merely happened around South Tyrol - which I think would imply a smaller frontier.

Uhm, technically you are right. The Austro-Italian border included several places where it was Alpine warfare (the 'sides' of the Bozen-Trento salient, the Veneto border) and several ones where it was classical trench warfare (the 'bottom' of the Bozen-Trento salient, the Friuli border, the coast) whereas almost all of the Franco-Italian border would be Alpine warfare, except the Riviera coast, where it would be classical trench warfare.

Nonetheless, the main point remains: the Franco-Italian border is much shorter than the Austro-Italian border and would leave many more spare men.

Now if they have spare troops, the trenches in Lorraine will never see enough men...

Yep. Sad but true.

Considering Corsica I think tha tthe Italians will voice an interest in that, the British will want to try the feasability of amphibious landings and holding Corsica makes a blockade of the French Mediterranean coast easier?

It really does ? If so, I concur that an Anglo-Italian landing to seize it has strategic value. If not, Italy can and surely would still claim the island at the peace table, same as Nice, Savoy, and Tunisia.

 

[Monty Burns]

It really does ? If so, I concur that an Anglo-Italian landing to seize it has strategic value. If not, Italy can and surely would still claim the island at the peace table, same as Nice, Savoy, and Tunisia.

I thought so. Just installing some coastal artillery and torpedo boat squadrons should be enough to guarantee secure passage of French shpis nearby? But I'm no naval expert - I might be completely wrong here.

In any case, you're right that Italy will claim it. But claims are easier to fulfill with men on the ground. Especially ITTL where hte big players Germany and Britain will likely push against territorial exchanges in Europe - or so I presume.

 

[carlton_bach]

Hm. Could someone point me to where it was confirmed that France will enter the war (given that it is entirely possible that Deroulede and the Ligueists will be out of government when the ball drops, and that it is very likely that the French government is at least vaguely aware that some form of agreement has been made between the British and the Germans)?

Man got it. It's a knife-edge thing, but French neutrality is a distinct possibility.

 

[Doctor Imperialism]

Man got it. It's a knife-edge thing, but French neutrality is a distinct possibility.

Ah! So we might not be seeing a world war after all!

 

[Doctor Imperialism]

Also, I confess I was disappointed when I saw your name next to this thread and then saw that you haden't updated

 

[carlton_bach]

08 February 1906, Berlin

“I refuse to believe it is coincidental.” General von der Goltz looked worried and angry. The headlines that blared the accusation through a near-representative selection of the right-wing press had caught everyone off guard: General Hohenau of the Guards Corps a homosexual pervert? Major Count von Lynar his accomplice? It was a frightening thought. Hohenau was an officer's officer, a Prussian officer of the first water, brave, handsome and dashing. He had served with the Guards not least because he was so eminently presentable, of course, a thought that worried EmperorWilhelm in retrospect. The rumours had taken a few days to make their way from fringe papers to the more respectable organs of the mass-circulation broadsheets and journals. Von der Goltz had used this time to make his own investigations and came away with the sobering news that, however vicious and cowardly these accusations might be, they were true. Not only true, but the tip of an iceberg that the press was only beginning to understand.

“Well, yes, but no matter, it is true and there will have to be consequences.” President of police Golz said with the finality of a man dedicated to his duty above all else. He could not be accused of an excess of genius, but he was devoted to making the writ of the law run in Berlin. Given the Berliners and their inclinations, that made him a Sisyphean figure.

Wilhelm, seated at the head of the table in the small Charlottenburg conference room, nodded with quiet resignation. “Of course, Mr Golz. The law must take its course. I would wish, though, that it could be done with less public attention than it has received to date.”

General von der Goltz looked unhappy. “Your Majesty, this is a problematic course. Obviously, the publication of the data was designed to embarrass the government. We are trying to find out where it might have come from. Someone out there has dangerous information and hostile intent. On the immediate matter at issue I would say that they are good officers, and should be kept in the service no matter where they stick their dicks.”

The calculated obscenity elicited a sharp intake of breath from the president of police. “Sir,” he countered, “no matter their military qualities, we have a law in this country. It may be possible, sadly, to ignore generalised suspicion for a long time, but specific individual accusations will have to be followed up. The state attorney's office is in full agreement on the matter.” That may have been an overstatement. Oberstaatsanwalt Isenbiehl was a careerist and would happily bend to the emperor's will on any issue. But absent such obstacles, he, too, was known for correctness.

Von der Goltz was not going to fight a battle over principle here. He shrugged. “I suppose if they got themselves into this situation, they'll have to take the consequences. What worries me is what this will do to the reputation of the Guards Corps. Apparently, they are not alone, for one thing. Who would have known...”

Inspector Tresckow cleared his throat. The police president had brought him along as the officer leading the investigation – unheard of in traditional Berlin., but Wilhelm liked to talk to the people who did the actual work. The inspector was, by all accounts, a competent man. Wilhelm nodded to him. “Inspector, you wish to say something?”

“Majesty,” he began, “I am sorry to say so, but everybody could have known. This was not really a secret. The police of Berlin does not have the resources to prosecute every case of homosexual conduct that comes to its attention, and especially the military can be – less than cooperative in these matters.”

Wilhelm looked shocked.

“Your Majesty,” Tresckow hastened to add, “I am not saying the homosexuals in the military constitute a large number, but the cases attract a higher profile. Soldiers in uniform are objects of desire for many men so inclined. In some cases, they are also involved for the sake of monetary gain.”

It did not seem to improve things. The emperor took a deep breath and closed his eyes for a moment. Then, he turned towards the inspector and tried to smile.

“Inspector, I can assure you all this is news to me, but I will take your word for it. At this juncture, my main concern is my army. Rest assured I will not interfere with justice taking its duly appointed course, but also understand that I will be grateful for a measure of discretion in the scope of your investigation.”

“A letter to Hohenau may be in order.”, von der Goltz pointed out. “He may be foolish enough to fight this thing out in court otherwise. That could do horrendous damage.”

Wilhelm nodded. “Yes, that will do. If he resigns now, he can still leave with some dignity, not to mention a pension. And one other thing.” He turned to the president of police. “I wish to know where these accusations come from. I know there cannot be official charges brought against their originator, but if you are going to investigate this matter, then I wish you to find out.”

President of police Golz straightened in his chair. He would have clicked his heels had he been standing. “Your majesty, you may rely on me. I will assign inspector Tresckow to the matter, and any results will be forwarded to your private office by courier.”

Tresckow looked like Christmas had come early. 'A good man' the president had described him, and nonetheless, used in snooping after sodomites. This kind of assignment must be an improvement, von der Goltz thought. He would not lack for motivation, at least.

 

[carlton_bach]

Also, I confess I was disappointed when I saw your name next to this thread and then saw that you haden't updated

Hey, come back. We got the Berlin gay scene today!

 

[The Sandman]

Might this be a good time to quietly fund a German archaeological expedition to Sparta, as a way of muddying the waters a bit? After all, gays in the military do have a rather long history, and if somebody tries to claim that gay men were why Sparta fell it can be easily be countered by saying that "no, an unhappy slave population was why Sparta fell".

Which can in turn be used as an argument against any crazy Prussian ideas of territorial conquest in Russia, aside perhaps for Kurland.