Ersatz Wood Aircraft

Would Tego film aircraft be...

  • ...cheaper

    Votes: 8 66.7%
  • ...more expensive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...better

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • ...worse

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • ...equal

    Votes: 6 50.0%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .
Good evening everybody!

I am new here so, long time lurker and i would like to expand a commento by @marathag :

Aluminum can be lighter than fiberglass for construction, and laminated wood is a weaker composite than fiberglass. Another downside is Aluminum is isotropic, giving uniform strength in all directions, wood is anisotropic, so multiple laminations are needed to get strength in the required directions.

They have different fatigue as well.

Once you get to actual spun glass with resins, the strength to weight ratio is better than Aluminum alloys, but we aren't there yet with the layup used with the Mosquito, Duramold was close in strength, and had the advantage of no stress points from riveting, so in effect better than Aluminum

So, an Aluminum Mosquito would have been slightly higher performing

What if Germany (protected better Tego film factory and) switched to wood ersatz aircraft?

Would they be better, worse o equal than metal OTL ones?

You have multiple choices and please, give me as more information as possible!

Bonus tip: were fibreglass aircraft possible back then? AFAIK no, but please, refute me.

May i also unshamingly bump another poll?
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...red-during-xian-incident-japan-option.478792/
 

marathag

Banned
Resorcinol with formaldehyde results in a very strong, moisture and UV proof glue. Resorcinol was discovered in the 1860s in Germany, but not for gluing to the mid 1940s.
Germans never ran out of Aluminum, but doing wood laminates similar to Duramold doesn't need as many trained workers, it much more assembly friendly and faster overall-- and that will raise production output. initial setup cost may be less than AL stamping dies

The longer life you can get with even early composites is a wasted benefit, given the lifespan of combat airframes.
Would be great for warbird collectors decades later, though.

The Germans had more airframes than they had pilots by late 1944, better airframes won't solve that problem
 
At work.

Indeed.

Adding my (Layman's two cents worth) opinion is that the bottle necks were;

Lack of pilots. (Looking forwards to those more knowledgeable expanding on/explaining the how's and why's or Germany's short commings here)

Total engine production.
Again I think there were multiple layers to this.
Litteral lack of tooling. So extra factories could not simply be built to add to capacity.
Lack of skilled and trained people.
Some of the various metals (Chrome etc) being in limited/short supply.

The availability of aviation engine grade fuel. What you can use to power a truck, car, bike or tank is quite different than an aircraft engine.

Cheers.
 

thaddeus

Donor
the Germans were using aluminum powder to boost the effectiveness of some of their bombs, was there any supply shortages that governed that? (Trialen bombs)

use of wood would help with (any) shortages of aluminum
 

marathag

Banned
The availability of aviation engine grade fuel. What you can use to power a truck, car, bike or tank is quite different than an aircraft engine.
Though in one way, the early turbines had a short life, but only took 700 man-hour to build, and 20% of the overall manufacturing cost of a high power radial that took over 3000 man-hours to build. So repeated 100 man-hour rebuilds aren't so bad in the overall sense.

Just would have better had they gone with a dual power setup, like the Ryan Fireball.
Not as fast, but really, it didn't need to be. Having a reliable 1200hp radial is a bonus, considering how touchy the turbines were, and you can use lower grade fuel for the Turbine, for economical speed.
 
At work.

Though in one way, the early turbines had a short life, but only took 700 man-hour to build, and 20% of the overall manufacturing cost of a high power radial that took over 3000 man-hours to build. So repeated 100 man-hour rebuilds aren't so bad in the overall sense.

Just would have better had they gone with a dual power setup, like the Ryan Fireball.
Not as fast, but really, it didn't need to be. Having a reliable 1200hp radial is a bonus, considering how touchy the turbines were, and you can use lower grade fuel for the Turbine, for economical speed.

I was going to lead in a tad slower with turbines....

I can quieten down about turbines any time I want... *Twitch*

:p

I mean.... if we're going 'Ultra cheap. Ultra primitive. ULTRA-fast' we can buttertly in Prof Lippisch work on deltas (Maybe he and Nicolas Payen cross paths/actually work together?) to get the wooden P-12a flying earlier?

A wooden, high Mach aircraft would spur on a LOT of development every where else.

So.... as a kind of 'Butterfly' start. The Germans are limited (Prevented?) with aircraft research. Hence all the obfuscating and back-room deals.

As has been pointed out. Rocketry was an 'Escape clause' in the treaty, hence the willingness to fund sufh research.

Prof Lippisch and Master Payen get together to snag some of this early 'Free cash' and prestige by claiming to be building "Experimental rocket aircraft".

Innitially leading of with something like the Japanese Ishikawajima Tsu-11.

NOTE! Something LIKE. As in made of wood with thermojet engine propulsion. NO explosives included.

"No propellers on these rocket prototypes. Nuh-uh."

The 'Need for speed' leading to a rather quick transition from thermojet to early turbojet thence into ramjet engines.

Hope my musings help. :)

Cheers.
 
Thank you of your answers!

The Germans had more airframes than they had pilots by late 1944, better airframes won't solve that problem

Lack of pilots. (Looking forwards to those more knowledgeable expanding on/explaining the how's and why's or Germany's short commings here)

Total engine production.

Indeed.

I read almost all thread about LW in this forum and I understood the consensus is the worst promblem of LW was lack of pilot (expecially after BoB and Baby Blitz) and then lack of av-engine.
My question was a strictly technical one, since @marathag opinion was new to me.

I must confess that I am more interested in spare aluminium and skilled labour.

Some of the various metals (Chrome etc) being in limited/short supply.

I heard this remark often, but then I read this:

DB605.
.....19.01kg of chromium.

DB603.
.....21.96kg of chromium.
.....2.16kg of nickel.

Jumo 004A (1942 design).
.....21lbs of chromium.

Jumo 004B.
.....7lbs of chromium.

Unfortunately I have no material data for Jumo 213 or BMW 801.

Rather interesting that even early model Jumo 004A jet engine used less chromium then V12 piston engines.

IIRC, chromite was needed almost exclusively in the engine, but I may be wrong: do you have better infos @Peebothuhlu?
 
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First thing, the Germans were indeed short on materials for metal airframes by late 1944, and that's why they did indeed design (in an incredibly short time), build and deploy a wood-and-glue jet fighter: the He 162 Volksjäger. Some of the prototypes and operational aircraft were lost to structural collapse.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that the shortage of avgas and the shortage of trained pilots aren't two separate issues; the latter is caused by the former. That's why the Germans were keen on gliders for training. The upshot here is that jet and rocket fighters don't need the hard-to-produce very-high-octane avgas; they were easier to fuel, especially the jets.

And as to the main question, my guess (yes, not a truly informed opinion) is that potentially a wooden aircraft can be as good as its aluminium twin, but it requires exceptionally good engineering. If you read a description not only of the shell but also of the structure of the Mosquito, you'll notice it's built like a violin. Different types of wood and plywood for different areas and purposes, different thicknesses, different layers having different orientations, and so on and so forth. It's not easy to be that good, and certainly you can't be in a couple of months from design to production.

Additionally, all that being said, I'd be more comfortable in a wooden bomber (or wooden heavy fighter, or night fighter) than in a wooden air-supremacy fighter. Ultimately, the latter routinely sees very high Gs in fighter-vs-fighter combat, and even metal fuselages and wings happened to go to hell in a handbasket with those.
 
Thank you very much!

the He 162 Volksjäger. Some of the prototypes and operational aircraft were lost to structural collapse.

AFAIK, that is more a problem of glue, that is the reason why my implicit POD is
What if Germany (protected better Tego film factory


And as to the main question, my guess (yes, not a truly informed opinion) is that potentially a wooden aircraft can be as good as its aluminium twin, but it requires exceptionally good engineering. If you read a description not only of the shell but also of the structure of the Mosquito, you'll notice it's built like a violin. Different types of wood and plywood for different areas and purposes, different thicknesses, different layers having different orientations, and so on and so forth. It's not easy to be that good, and certainly you can't be in a couple of months from design to production.

Indeed, but my rationale is that German was better off investing in superb-engineering+slave-labour than skilled-engineering+skilled-labour. And spare truckload of aluminium for...a thing.
 
Wooden, subsonic airplanes can be built to similar weight and strengths as aluminum airplanes. Sheet metal construction was really only perfected during the 1930s, so tooling and skilled workers were still in short supply.
Since wood-working tools and labour were widely available, all WW2 combatents built wooden trainers and assault gliders.
One of the few front-line wooden airplanes was the DH Mosquito fighter bomber. DeHavilland of Canada furthur simplifies tooling by casting concrete moles that were more stable than the wooden production kits used in Britain. Mosquito’s smoother skin reduced drag compared with metal airplanes. Mosquito’s biggest disadvantage was its short airframe life caused by water saturation or termite saturation. In the Far East, termites and white ants especially enjoyed the flavour of glue.

The Bakelite, Duramold, etc. plywood used by America, Canadaand Russia helped seal plywood against water saturation. When you compare a Duramold Canadian-made AvRO Anson with a British-built steel tube, wood and fabric Anson, the reduction in parts count is as amazing as the much larger useable volume in the fuselage!

Try to think of plywood as composites/fibreglass built with organic materials. You can tailor the strength and weight of plywood airplanes by only laying wood strands in the same direction as structural loads. The next step is adding a few e-glass (common window glass) ribbons in highly-stressed areas like spar caps.

As an aside, sheet aluminum P-51 out-performed most other metal fighters because of precise attention to detail on outer seams and flush rivets on leading edges.

Germany always suffered man-power shortages. WW1 ground to a halt when Germany exhausted its supply of young men/soldiers. They needed another 20 years - to raise another crop of young men - before they could resume the war. Many modern historians teach WW1 and WW2 as a single war. Slave labour is a clear sign that a country is short of labour.

Over on the www.homebuiltairplanes.com website, there are plenty of threads comparing the relative merits of aluminum versus wood versus composite construction. While theoretically modern carbon fibre composites can be built lighter than other methods, few amateurs have the skills or tooling to build light, composite airplanes and most plans-built composite airplanes weigh more than the prototype. We can expect similar crude, heavy composites during WW2.
 
Wooden, subsonic airplanes can be built to similar weight and strengths as aluminum airplanes. Sheet metal construction was really only perfected during the 1930s, so tooling and skilled workers were still in short supply.
Since wood-working tools and labour were widely available, all WW2 combatents built wooden trainers and assault gliders.
One of the few front-line wooden airplanes was the DH Mosquito fighter bomber. DeHavilland of Canada furthur simplifies tooling by casting concrete moles that were more stable than the wooden production kits used in Britain. Mosquito’s smoother skin reduced drag compared with metal airplanes. Mosquito’s biggest disadvantage was its short airframe life caused by water saturation or termite saturation. In the Far East, termites and white ants especially enjoyed the flavour of glue.

The Bakelite, Duramold, etc. plywood used by America, Canadaand Russia helped seal plywood against water saturation. When you compare a Duramold Canadian-made AvRO Anson with a British-built steel tube, wood and fabric Anson, the reduction in parts count is as amazing as the much larger useable volume in the fuselage!

Try to think of plywood as composites/fibreglass built with organic materials. You can tailor the strength and weight of plywood airplanes by only laying wood strands in the same direction as structural loads. The next step is adding a few e-glass (common window glass) ribbons in highly-stressed areas like spar caps.

As an aside, sheet aluminum P-51 out-performed most other metal fighters because of precise attention to detail on outer seams and flush rivets on leading edges.

Germany always suffered man-power shortages. WW1 ground to a halt when Germany exhausted its supply of young men/soldiers. They needed another 20 years - to raise another crop of young men - before they could resume the war. Many modern historians teach WW1 and WW2 as a single war. Slave labour is a clear sign that a country is short of labour.

Over on the www.homebuiltairplanes.com website, there are plenty of threads comparing the relative merits of aluminum versus wood versus composite construction. While theoretically modern carbon fibre composites can be built lighter than other methods, few amateurs have the skills or tooling to build light, composite airplanes and most plans-built composite airplanes weigh more than the prototype. We can expect similar crude, heavy composites during WW2.

Thank you very much @riggerrob!

May I ask you If fibreglass/plastic airplanes were fesable in the 30-40s?
 
The French were very keen on wooden emergency fighters like the VG-33 and the Soviets, who seem to have been heavily influenced by French aviation industry were also into wood. All Soviet fighters except the final Yaks were either all wood or mostly wood.

The biggest problem with wood aircraft is it required far more man hours than metal. So it was great for countries with plenty of man power but a shortage of aluminum. Unfortunately for Germany they were short of both.
 
The biggest problem with wood aircraft is it required far more man hours than metal. So it was great for countries with plenty of man power but a shortage of aluminum. Unfortunately for Germany they were short of both.

That is exactly with I was interest in casted resin: less manpower, less aluminum for...the thing.

EDIT: AFAIK wood aircraft were built faster, weren't they?
 
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Deleted member 1487

All the tech was doable in the '30s, but no-one went there.
As I understand it the Ta-154 did use a large amount of plastic as well as wood, but the glue problem compromised the design (which did have a few other flaws as well inherent in the layout).
 
Though in one way, the early turbines had a short life, but only took 700 man-hour to build, and 20% of the overall manufacturing cost of a high power radial that took over 3000 man-hours to build. So repeated 100 man-hour rebuilds aren't so bad in the overall sense.

Just would have better had they gone with a dual power setup, like the Ryan Fireball.
Not as fast, but really, it didn't need to be. Having a reliable 1200hp radial is a bonus, considering how touchy the turbines were, and you can use lower grade fuel for the Turbine, for economical speed.

The Germans dreamed of 100 hour life spans. They lacked the correct metals for alloy turbine blades so they suffered from blade creep ie they stretched so had to be literally trimmed after less than 30 hours then they got one more use after which they had to be discarded (recycled) after a further 15 hours iirc.
 
Thank you of your answers!





Indeed.

I read almost all thread about LW in this forum and I understood the consensus is the worst promblem of LW was lack of pilot (expecially after BoB and Baby Blitz) and then lack of av-engine.
My question was a strictly technical one, since @marathag opinion was new to me.

I must confess that I am more interested in spare aluminium and skilled labour.



I heard this remark often, but then I read this:



IIRC, chromite was needed almost exclusively in the engine, but I may be wrong: do you have better infos @Peebothuhlu?

Not as such.

Long ago I did have a fantastic/wonderful referance book in regards to German turbine and Otto engines. Sadly, said item has become lost through the ages and many domecile transitions.

Yes indeed the early German (And I think British?) turbines used less materials for their construction than Otto engine blocks.

They were, also, rather 'Brand new' techniligy (Whittle's patent only being around since the... 1920's?) so pretty much every one was both building them AND learning all the "Do's" and "Don't" along the way as they did so.

I have some nice, concise infromation on the Lippisch P-12a if you'd like?

Much cheers to your endeavours. :)
 
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