Eretz Yisrael

Both Arab and Jewish militants who were unhappy with the partition plan attacked British officials, British soldiers, and innocent civilians.​

The British would establish a "Jewish Legion" to be the army of the future Jewish state under British hegemony, in parallel with the Arab Legion.

The two Legions would be tasked with carrying out the population transfers, thus allowing the British to keep their hands clean.

The Jewish Agency of Palestine organized a governing body to assume authority once the British troops evacuated the portion of the mandate designated for a Jewish state.
The British would not evacuate. The Jewish state is being created with British support under British authority; it would remain under their "mandate". The Zionists would prefer to keep this British connection.

Note that the British would not evacuate the Jerusalem zone or the Arab zone and Trans-Jordan.
 
...and offer not a Jewish Brigade to Britain but a Jewish Division or even Corps?
Hmm... It depends when in the war that would happen. I mean Israel might not want to annoy Germany too much, and if a Jewish Division is sent to fight for the British then this might halt any emigration by Jews from Germany to Israel.
It's really not necessary, except for the Golan Height (as it would give them control over the major regional source of fresh water) any land this Israel could conquer would be of relative little use for them. They already have the best farmland and they don't need room, as increase the size of the major cities are more efficient. Beside this Israel do not get the wave of Arabic Jews as OTL did.
It might be of little use, but the desire for an Israel based on the lands God promised them might factor into it. I mean if Israel can do it peacefully, then might go for the remaining Mandate of Palestine. Don't forget, the agreement specifically uses the word God in it, and notably is absent of any promise to not expand further.
 
Fingers crossed we don't devolve into

Israel Good / Palestinians Bad
Palestinians Good / Israel Bad

QUOTE=Evan;7514754]But they probably want places like Jerusalem, Hebron, and Masada...
If read the map correctly, these are in the British mandate. I assume the British will withdraw after WWIi. I am inclined to think that Israel and Transjordan will have a peaceful relationship. aAbdullah seemed satisfied.I am naive to think there will be a peaceful division of the British mandate.
 
If read the map correctly, these are in the British mandate. I assume the British will withdraw after WWIi. I am inclined to think that Israel and Transjordan will have a peaceful relationship. aAbdullah seemed satisfied.I am naive to think there will be a peaceful division of the British mandate.
Well, Jerusalem (definitely the most important for both sides) is; Hebron and Masada aren't. I don't think the British Mandate can be peacefully divided, which means there'll be conflict between Israel and Transjordan (which really needs to be renamed now that it's on both sides of the Jordan). Of course, they may agree to govern it as a condominium or just leave the whole mess in British hands, but that's rather unlikely...
 

Jim Thorpe

Banned
While a Jewish and Arab legion certainly could be established, given the nature of the population exchange, I think that the British Army would have to be used. The Jewish State, while created with British support was never intended to remain under mandate, only the Jerusalem zone was to remain under mandate (which is where the British soldiers "evacuated" to)

The remaining area of the Mandate of Jerusalem will likely be a point of contention. While both sides (Israel and Jordan) expect some form of partition of the Jerusalem zone, they each believe they will be getting most of the Jerusalem zone. The British thus far, have given only non-committal answers to the fate of the mandate.

While the Nazis will no doubt try to encourage Jews to immigrate, I believe there will be a point where all the Jews who want to immigrate have, or the Nazi willingness to the deport the Jews will cease.
 
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Jim Thorpe

Banned
War in the Mediterranean
638px-HMS_Birmingham_convoy.jpg

British vessels escorting a convoy to Malta

On 11 June 1940, hoping to make easy gains at expense of France, Italy declared war on the Allies. On the following day, Italian bombers attacked Malta on what was to be the first of many raids, marking the state of the Battle of the Mediterranean. The first clash in the Mediterranean was the Battle of Calabria. The inconclusive battle took place on 8 July, just four weeks after the start of hostilities. For the rest of the Summer, only minor actions were conducted such as the Battle of the Espero convoy and the Battle of Cape Spada. In November, the British mounted an aerial attack on the Italian fleet in Taranto harbor, crippling three capital ships. In December, an indecisive battle was fought off of the coast of Sardinia. In 1941, the focus of the Battle of the Mediterranean shifted eastward as the Italian Navy attempted to turn the tide in the Greco-Italian War back in Italy's favor. On March 24, the Italian navy would be decisively beaten by the Allied fleet in the Battle of Kithera off the coast of Greece. Although Israel declared neutrality, on March 26, 1941 Israel would experience firsthand the effects of the Battle of the Mediterranean with the HMS York Incident​

The HMS York Incident and Israeli entry into WWII
Bombing_of_haifa_13.jpg

The Haifa Refinery in flames after being hit by Italian bombers

On March 26, 1941, Israeli neutrality in WWII was jeopardized by the HMS York Incident. Early in the morning of March 26, the cruiser HMS York was hit off the coast of Palestine by a wave of Italian bombers, based from the Dodecanese Islands, heading towards targets in Mandated Palestine. The HMS York was heavily damaged, but was not sunk by the Italian bomber wave, so the cruiser attempted to seek shelter in Haifa port[1]. However, the Cruiser was detected by a second wave of Italian bombers as it entered the harbor of Haifa. The Italian bombers violated Israeli airspace (something both Italy and the Allies would frequently do in spite of Israeli objection[2]) and attacked the HMS York while in Haifa harbor, and managed to sink the cruiser. However, a few Italian bombers were off-target, and unintentionally struck targets on the Israeli mainland (most notably the Haifa refinery, which was located close to the harbor). The bombing left most of the crew of the HMS York dead along with several other Israeli civilians. There was outrage across Israel and with many calls for war, but the Government was deeply divided about whether to join the Euro-centric conflict. Prime Minister Ben-Gurion and the Mapai party initially were content with the Italian apology. However, after receiving a secret offer from British envoy Malcolm MacDonald, Ben-Gurion and the Mapai party decisively swung to the Pro-War camp. MacDonald offered on behalf of the British Government to cede the entire Jerusalem zone to Israel in 1948 (when the Mandates was set to either been renewed or terminated), in return for Israeli entry into WWII. Ben-Gurion, after much contemplation decided to take the British up on their offer and join WWII. On April 2, 1941, the Knesset voted for a declaration of War on Italy (which was soon followed by a German declaration of War on Israel). Israel was at war.​

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[1]-Prefering internment by the Israeli's than risking an attempt to reach Alexandria
[2]-Until this point, no combat has actually taken place on Israeli soil, airspace or territorial waters, and Israeli threats and requests had little weight behind them
 
So, I do have a few queries:

Where the heck is Jabotinsky, and how has he not started a civil war yet?

How does Ben-Gurion feel about losing his beloved playground, the Negev?

Surely you realize there's no way those borders will hold, right? Even Ben-Gurion wasn't really content with the Pe'el proposal, and only considered the borders drawn up as temporary at best. Zionism is still at its absolute worst form, and no one is going to be content with just a shard of the Holy Land.
 

Jim Thorpe

Banned
So, I do have a few queries:

Where the heck is Jabotinsky, and how has he not started a civil war yet?

How does Ben-Gurion feel about losing his beloved playground, the Negev?

Surely you realize there's no way those borders will hold, right? Even Ben-Gurion wasn't really content with the Pe'el proposal, and only considered the borders drawn up as temporary at best. Zionism is still at its absolute worst form, and no one is going to be content with just a shard of the Holy Land.

Jabotinsky had a scheme to evacuate the Jewish communities of Poland, Hungary and Romania to Palestine, so I presume he would be trying to implement that plan now that Israel exists. Given he died of heart complications, I presume he would still die sometime around 1940 before he can cause a lot of trouble.

The Israeli's don't feel bound by the Peel proposal and wish to expand(and I stated this in the first update). The Peel proposal was accepted (as it was IOTL) because many in the WZO thought that accepting the Peel proposal would be the best and easiest route for obtaining all or most of Eretz Israel. With a higher population and less land, there will be strong desire by Israeli's to expand their borders.
 

katchen

Banned
The Arabs won't be accepting the Peel Commission either. Certainly not Haj Amin al Husseini and certainly not Abd al Aziz Ibn Saud. The problem in a nutshell is that a for fundamentalist Muslims, a Jewish State is a complete and satanic reversal of fortune that calls the entire validity of Islam into question. That is the reason for the Muslim insistence on the humiliation and subordination of Jews and Christians in the state of protection known as dhimmitude. (See "The Dhimmi" by Bat Ye'Or Case Western University Press and the companion volume" Islam and Dhimmitude"). So it is unrealistic not to expect Arab resistance similar to the 194i7-49 Israeli "War of Liberation" as soon as the British leave except that there are no newly organized independent Arab states for Israel to contend with except Transjordan and it's Arab Legion which ITTL is apparently supporting this arrangement at least for now.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Arabs won't be accepting the Peel Commission either. Certainly not Haj Amin al Husseini and certainly not Abd al Aziz Ibn Saud. The problem in a nutshell is that a for fundamentalist Muslims, a Jewish State is a complete and satanic reversal of fortune that calls the entire validity of Islam into question. That is the reason for the Muslim insistence on the humiliation and subordination of Jews and Christians in the state of protection known as dhimmitude. (See "The Dhimmi" by Bat Ye'Or Case Western University Press and the companion volume" Islam and Dhimmitude"). So it is unrealistic not to expect Arab resistance similar to the 194i7-49 Israeli "War of Liberation" as soon as the British leave except that there are no newly organized independent Arab states for Israel to contend with except Transjordan and it's Arab Legion which ITTL is apparently supporting this arrangement at least for now.
Yeah, I'm not sure the Israelis would be sending many men to fight, for concern of Arab attacks, which I'm 100% have been happening non-stop since the founding of this Israel. Also the declaration of war is going to make any export of the Jewish population left in Europe (i.e. anyone not in Germany, Austria, Poland that hadn't left, or France) stop and the OTL Holocaust begin. I would have thought that would have been the exact thing to make Israel not want to enter into the war, knowing that they are leaving the rest of Europe's Jews to Hitler's retribution.
 
Jabotinsky had a scheme to evacuate the Jewish communities of Poland, Hungary and Romania to Palestine, so I presume he would be trying to implement that plan now that Israel exists. Given he died of heart complications, I presume he would still die sometime around 1940 before he can cause a lot of trouble.

The Israeli's don't feel bound by the Peel proposal and wish to expand(and I stated this in the first update). The Peel proposal was accepted (as it was IOTL) because many in the WZO thought that accepting the Peel proposal would be the best and easiest route for obtaining all or most of Eretz Israel. With a higher population and less land, there will be strong desire by Israeli's to expand their borders.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Neither the Revisionary Zionists nor the Arabs nor the Moderate Zionists (as Ben-Gurion's sayings on the matter will attest to) would accept a Pe'el proposal without engaging in some form of conflict soon thereafter. Ben-Gurion should be up to his neck in internal pressure and strife, the Arab's reaction to the deal is presented quite well by katchen, and the Irgun would be trying to decide whether to bomb the Israelis, the British or the Arabs. I'm very interested in this scenario, and I think you could develop it to fascinating places, but your pace is way too fast in my opinion. A jump to 1941 without detailing how on earth this situation is holding together is a bad choice, in my opinion.

That being said, I'm subscribing, because you've still caught my attention. :)
 

ingemann

Banned
Wouldn't Israel be eager to fight Hitler?

Lehi/Stern Gang offered to ally with Hitler against the British in 1940, so I don't think that Israel would necessary join the war.

As for the British I don't see why they would be willing to give Israel anything to join the war. Israel would be a small unimportant state.

As for why a war didn't start after the British split Palestina, I think the fact that the British are still a major power not tired of war, is a reason for everybody to sit still.

More likely we could see Israel using the opportunity after the fall of France to move into the Golan and maybe also declare war on Jordan (I don't think they are stupid enough to invade the rump British mandate).
 

Deleted member 1487

Wouldn't Israel be eager to fight Hitler?

They would have their hands full settling the situation in the Middle East to bother with much in Europe; also if they are interested in maintaining the forced export of Jews, who would be reinforcements/additional help building up Israel, they would have to stay on Hitler's good side. Of course once Hitler conquers Poland that would mean Israel has to be willing to accept some 3 million people in a matter of a few years; France/Belgium/Holland/Norway/Denmark adds in hundreds of thousands more, while Barbarossa would add in millions.

Prior to 1939 there would only be some 100,000 or so Jews in Germany and Austria that needed to get out, but couldn't (IIRC something like 300k got their 'Aryan' status by special appeal), so these could be handled in this smaller version of Israel IMHO without too much trouble. Until 1942-43 I don't think the Hungarian, Italian, Slovak, or Romanian Jews were targeted by the Nazis, so wouldn't need a home until then.
But this Israel, not to mention OTL Israel, would not be able to accept the millions of Polish Jews, so that would be a serious issues, especially if (when) the partition causes massive violence in the area. If anything it would end up tying down more British resources to establish an Israel than put off the situation. The Israelis can offer to take over more duties from British forces in the area, but I doubt they would be accepted, considering what it would mean from the Arabs in the region.

Not only that, but when there is violence in the wake of the partition, Israel would be too bogged down defending its territory or trying to take more to make more room for Jewish refugees to participate in the war in Europe. Plus to avoid pissing Hitler off and having him take it out on European Jews, I doubt they would want to get involved other than to offer to take on Jewish refugees if Hitler would let them go peaceably...not sure how peaceably that would happen though.

Lehi/Stern Gang offered to ally with Hitler against the British in 1940, so I don't think that Israel would necessary join the war.

As for the British I don't see why they would be willing to give Israel anything to join the war. Israel would be a small unimportant state.

As for why a war didn't start after the British split Palestina, I think the fact that the British are still a major power not tired of war, is a reason for everybody to sit still.

I thought Lehi tried in 1934 and then was too angry at the Nazis for their treatment of Jews to get much further than that. Also IIRC Hitler wanted to court Britain at the time, so didn't want to antagonize her by supporting a Jewish revolt.

More likely we could see Israel using the opportunity after the fall of France to move into the Golan and maybe also declare war on Jordan (I don't think they are stupid enough to invade the rump British mandate).
That would put them at odds with the British at an awkward time, which would effectively make them allies of Germany and would let the British align with Arab interests, something Israel really wants to avoid. I think neutrality while getting Jews out of Europe and building up for a post-war show down for the expansion of Israel would make much more sense realistically. There would be enough fighting as it was in the Middle East as a result of Israel being created to keep Israel occupied before 1940.
 
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ingemann

Banned
They would have their hands full settling the situation in the Middle East to bother with much in Europe; also if they are interested in maintaining the forced export of Jews, who would be reinforcements/additional help building up Israel, they would have to stay on Hitler's good side. Of course once Hitler conquers Poland that would mean Israel has to be willing to accept some 3 million people in a matter of a few years; France/Belgium/Holland/Norway/Denmark adds in hundreds of thousands more, while Barbarossa would add in millions.

Prior to 1939 there would only be some 100,000 or so Jews in Germany and Austria that needed to get out, but couldn't (IIRC something like 300k got their 'Aryan' status by special appeal), so these could be handled in this smaller version of Israel IMHO without too much trouble. Until 1942-43 I don't think the Hungarian, Italian, Slovak, or Romanian Jews were targeted by the Nazis, so wouldn't need a home until then.
But this Israel, not to mention OTL Israel, would not be able to accept the millions of Polish Jews, so that would be a serious issues, especially if (when) the partition causes massive violence in the area. If anything it would end up tying down more British resources to establish an Israel than put off the situation. The Israelis can offer to take over more duties from British forces in the area, but I doubt they would be accepted, considering what it would mean from the Arabs in the region.

Not only that, but when there is violence in the wake of the partition, Israel would be too bogged down defending its territory or trying to take more to make more room for Jewish refugees to participate in the war in Europe. Plus to avoid pissing Hitler off and having him take it out on European Jews, I doubt they would want to get involved other than to offer to take on Jewish refugees if Hitler would let them go peaceably...not sure how peaceably that would happen though.



I thought Lehi tried in 1934 and then was too angry at the Nazis for their treatment of Jews to get much further than that. Also IIRC Hitler wanted to court Britain at the time, so didn't want to antagonize her by supporting a Jewish revolt.


That would put them at odds with the British at an awkward time, which would effectively make them allies of Germany and would let the British align with Arab interests, something Israel really wants to avoid. I think neutrality while getting Jews out of Europe and building up for a post-war show down for the expansion of Israel would make much more sense realistically. There would be enough fighting as it was in the Middle East as a result of Israel being created to keep Israel occupied before 1940.

They could move into Golan with the argument that it was necessary to protect Israel and Jordan from Syrian invasion in case France lost control over Syria. No one will buy it, but it may be accepted simply because it easier than teach I srael a lesson, while Jordan may not care, if the Israeli and Jordan make a deal for sharing water.
 
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