Equipment and History of a WWII Israeli Defense Forces.

How could a Jewish State fight a World War II?
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Let's assume there has been a much larger influx of Jews into Ottoman Palestine in the 19th Century, which has been allowed by the Ottoman authorities. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, with the encouragement from the British, the Jewish State declared its independence concurrently with the Arab States, was recognized by the later as an independent state with West Jerusalem as its capital.

All ME states, Jewish and Arab, were still under British imperialism as in OTL, but the status of a Jewish state in the region has been undeniable by the 1920s in this universe. By late 1930s it had almost gained full Self Rule, similar to Canada and South Africa, with British troops still stationed in some isolated bases.

The Nazis still took power in 1933, and the World War still took place in 1939.

Now, how would this Israel react to the Antisemitic Third Reich in Europe?

It could send its own expedition forces to Europe, alongside the BEF;
It could assist the Balkan countries against the Nazis;
It would become a prime target of Rommel's Afrikakorp, and had to defend itself;
It could also send a Expeditionary Force to the Soviet Union, just like the Normandie Niemen Regiment.

What kind of weapons they would possess? British of course, but a autonomous state with its own military could make and import its own weapons.
 
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Depending on its relations with Russia - it's most likely to have British or French Weapons

Possible hand me downs?

P14 Rifles (over a million built so lots available), Lewis guns? Maybe some Hotchkiss 1909s in .303 - Britain unlikely to hand over its Queens (Vickers)

Tanks? Initially I would have said none - more likely armoured cars - Rolls Royce and the like. Very likely to have horsed cavalry units supported by horse drawn artillery and Armoured cars!

Artillery - I don't think Britain or France will want them to have anything too heavy so maybe older 18 pounders etc.

Once war starts and the Israelis throw in with the British and French - I can see this force initially being used as a garrison force in the middle east - possibly freeing up Commonwealth units for North and East Africa.

Later on assuming the war follows a pretty much OTL path - I can see them being seen as a 'better' militia force used to take on Vichy French forces in the Middle east as well as east African Italian forces.

Later still I could see a British Equipped force (say Brigade Strength) fighting as a component of the 8th Army in the later Desert Campaign

Concerns that any POWs from this unit might be badly treated sees them sent to the Garrison at Ceylon and later they join the 14th Army under slim and spend 6 months as a Chindit formation (due to their Light infantry TO&E) before being pulled out due to heavy losses (particularly through illness).

In 1945 rerolled as a combined arms Division equipped pretty much as the rest of those forces they form part of the thrust across Burma until wars end - British records show them being as valued as some of the better Australian units - similarities being drawn between the informal rank structure and somewhat disregard for official authority.

On another note like the French they highly valued the Sten gun for its simplicity and many infantry formations among the Israeli's had an almost 50% take up of the weapon.
 
So, the premise is a Jewish state in the form of British dominion?

Even so, why do you assume they would fight? Wouldn't they try and strike a deal with Germany to send European Jews their way? In OTL Avraham Stern even offered to ally with the nazis.
 
So, the premise is a Jewish state in the form of British dominion?

Even so, why do you assume they would fight? Wouldn't they try and strike a deal with Germany to send European Jews their way? In OTL Avraham Stern even offered to ally with the nazis.
Terrorists like Stern wouldn't fair well in a stable Israel.
 
So, the premise is a Jewish state in the form of British dominion?

Even so, why do you assume they would fight? Wouldn't they try and strike a deal with Germany to send European Jews their way? In OTL Avraham Stern even offered to ally with the nazis.
If the war starts in 1939 then this ATL Israel will definitely join the war on the British side.

Stern's faction was very small compared to the Haganah, whatever Stern tried to do IOTL is irrelevant to what an independent Israel would do. Also, Stern believed the Nazis could help him drive the British out of Palestine. In a TL where there is already an independent Israel, even under British protection, there'd be no reason for Stern to want German assistance.

How would this affect the wider war and development of the commonwealth?
I don't think by much. A Jewish protectorate in Palestine will basically be like OTL Transjordan - i.e. a useful local British ally in the region.
 

Deleted member 1487

How could a Jewish State fight a World War II?

Let's assume there has been a much larger influx of Jews into Ottoman Palestine in the 19th Century, which has been allowed by the Ottoman authorities. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, with the encouragement from the British, the Jewish State declared its independence concurrently with the Arab States, was recognized by the later as an independent state with West Jerusalem as its capital.

All ME states, Jewish and Arab, were still under British imperialism as in OTL, but the status of a Jewish state in the region has been undeniable by the 1920s in this universe. By late 1930s it had almost gained full Self Rule, similar to Canada and South Africa, with British troops still stationed in some isolated bases.

The Nazis still took power in 1933, and the World War still took place in 1939.

Now, how would this Israel react to the Antisemitic Third Reich in Europe?

It could send its own expedition forces to Europe, alongside the BEF;
It could assist the Balkan countries against the Nazis;
It would become a prime target of Rommel's Afrikakorp, and had to defend itself;
It could also send a Expeditionary Force to the Soviet Union, just like the Normandie Niemen Regiment.

What kind of weapons they would possess? British of course, but a autonomous state with its own military could make and import its own weapons.
The Arab world would be in revolt due to the de facto establishment of a Jewish state independent from Palestine, especially one that was done at the behest of Britain, and one that claims any of Jerusalem. Britain would have an epic mess on it's hands, which is exactly why it did not allow a Jewish state pre-WW2 and restricted Jewish immigration. Palestine would just have a larger Jewish population and would be much more unstable with more violence in the 1920s-30s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_Jaffa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(Mandatory_Palestine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Palestine_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_general_strike_(Mandatory_Palestine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
 
Possible hand me downs?

P14 Rifles (over a million built so lots available), Lewis guns? Maybe some Hotchkiss 1909s in .303 - Britain unlikely to hand over its Queens (Vickers)

At first, but I'd guess Israel would be looking to manufacture its own small arms. Given OTL's precedent re: Dominions, were looking at a licence build of British designs. However, it could lead to increased interest in proposed designs, more purchases of the Vickers-Berthier? More research and investment leading to a belt fed Vickers K?

Tanks? Initially I would have said none - more likely armoured cars - Rolls Royce and the like. Very likely to have horsed cavalry units supported by horse drawn artillery and Armoured cars!

Considering Britain's own role and equipment in the Middle East, this makes perfect sense. However, when war does come they will probably need to mechanise, although this would be a slow process.

Artillery - I don't think Britain or France will want them to have anything too heavy so maybe older 18 pounders etc.

At first, but Israel will still be expected to pull it's weight, so we're looking at a slow changeover to 25s IMO.

Once war starts and the Israelis throw in with the British and French - I can see this force initially being used as a garrison force in the middle east - possibly freeing up Commonwealth units for North and East Africa.

Makes sense. Question is, how many?
A better equipped army in East Africa means fewer setbacks and less justification for reorganising the Western Desert Force during Operation Compass.

This means that they'll reach their logistical limit earlier and therefore have more time to consolidate their gains. Perhaps Richard O'Connor is never captured here. There might also be a quicker, more robust response to the attack on Greece, preventing the fall of Crete.


Later on assuming the war follows a pretty much OTL path - I can see them being seen as a 'better' militia force used to take on Vichy French forces in the Middle east as well as east African Italian forces.

I suspect this would be their active role almost from the beginning. Assuming the Iraqi coup goes ahead, and later the Syria campaign, I'd expect Israeli forces involved in both.

Later still I could see a British Equipped force (say Brigade Strength) fighting as a component of the 8th Army in the later Desert Campaign.

Again, makes sense, although I suspect we'd be looking at a brigade group with some kind of light armour component.

Concerns that any POWs from this unit might be badly treated sees them sent to the Garrison at Ceylon and later they join the 14th Army under slim and spend 6 months as a Chindit formation (due to their Light infantry TO&E) before being pulled out due to heavy losses (particularly through illness).

Maybe, but this could disrupt operations unless it's done during a lull in fighting e.g. Between the end of the NA campaign and before Sicily.

In 1945 rerolled as a combined arms Division equipped pretty much as the rest of those forces they form part of the thrust across Burma until wars end - British records show them being as valued as some of the better Australian units - similarities being drawn between the informal rank structure and somewhat disregard for official authority.

On another note like the French they highly valued the Sten gun for its simplicity and many infantry formations among the Israeli's had an almost 50% take up of the weapon.

On another note, how would early independence affect economic/industrial development?
 
The Arab world would be in revolt due to the de facto establishment of a Jewish state independent from Palestine, especially one that was done at the behest of Britain, and one that claims any of Jerusalem. Britain would have an epic mess on it's hands, which is exactly why it did not allow a Jewish state pre-WW2 and restricted Jewish immigration. Palestine would just have a larger Jewish population and would be much more unstable with more violence in the 1920s-30s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_Jaffa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(Mandatory_Palestine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Palestine_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_general_strike_(Mandatory_Palestine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
In my knowledge, the Israeli Palestinian conflict happened largely because the Palestinians themselves were not landowners of Palestine, they were tenants subjected to landlords in faraway Egypt and Syria. The Israelis bought land from those landlords who cared little about their tenants, and the Jewish settlers drove those tenants out and took over their farmland as their own. This could have been avoided if the Zionists stayed urban, and avoided coming into direct conflict wth the Arab farmers.

The Turks and the non-Palestinian Arabs, they were not concerned with Palestinian wellbeing. They fought Israel IOTL for strategic reasons. They could have seen the Jews as useful to themselves ITTL.
 
In my knowledge, the Israeli Palestinian conflict happened largely because the Palestinians themselves were not landowners of Palestine, they were tenants subjected to landlords in faraway Egypt and Syria. The Israelis bought land from those landlords who cared little about their tenants, and the Jewish settlers drove those tenants out and took over their farmland as their own. This could have been avoided if the Zionists stayed urban, and avoided coming into direct conflict wth the Arab farmers.

The Turks and the non-Palestinian Arabs, they were not concerned with Palestinian wellbeing. They fought Israel IOTL for strategic reasons. They could have seen the Jews as useful to themselves ITTL.

Interesting set up with the urban/rural jewish/arab divide. Might change during the war though.
 

Deleted member 1487

In my knowledge, the Israeli Palestinian conflict happened largely because the Palestinians themselves were not landowners of Palestine, they were tenants subjected to landlords in faraway Egypt and Syria. The Israelis bought land from those landlords who cared little about their tenants, and the Jewish settlers drove those tenants out and took over their farmland as their own. This could have been avoided if the Zionists stayed urban, and avoided coming into direct conflict wth the Arab farmers.

The Turks and the non-Palestinian Arabs, they were not concerned with Palestinian wellbeing. They fought Israel IOTL for strategic reasons. They could have seen the Jews as useful to themselves ITTL.
Depends. When the later generations of Zionist settlers then decided to do the work themselves, it created a lot of unemployment among the Palestinian rural laborers who then ended up in poverty in the cities looking for work. There were certain factions of Zionism that felt that Jews must do the work themselves AND rule over all the land:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism
More extreme elements will do as they pleased and create problems with the Palestinians and vice versa, something Herzl saw as a distinct problem.

The problem of avoiding conflict is that Zionism is about creating a Jewish majority homeland, which means that eventually Zionist settlers cannot simply stay urban. This creates a structural problem between the Zionist settlers and the native Palestinians especially if they are to have a majority Jewish homeland, per Herzl:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Beliefs
Zionism was established with the political goal of creating a Jewish state in order to create a nation where Jews could be the majority, rather than the minority which they were in a variety of nations in the diaspora. Theodor Herzl, the ideological father of Zionism, considered Antisemitism to be an eternal feature of all societies in which Jews lived as minorities, and that only a separation could allow Jews to escape eternal persecution. "Let them give us sovereignty over a piece of the Earth's surface, just sufficient for the needs of our people, then we will do the rest!" he proclaimed exposing his plan.[32] :p.27 (29)

Herzl, Theodor (1896). "Palästina oder Argentinien?". Der Judenstaat (in German). sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de. p. 29 (31). Retrieved May 27, 2016.

The Palestinians will not allow the Mandate to be broken into two states, while Zionism requires a Jewish majority state to exist, as does the OP. There simply is an intractable conflict coming even if for some reason the Jewish settlers stayed only urban and avoid the problem of rural farmer displacement. Zionists didn't come to Palestine to stay as a faction in a Palestinian Arab majority state. That means violence and war to get OP's Israel and even settlement to the point of being able to form an independent Israel. So if it does happen expect the OTL 1947-48 war to happen in the 1930s and probably again during WW2.
 
For my timeline "Judea Rising" (which has a similar premise), I was assuming they would mostly have British equipment, possibly with a few local designs. I have specific plans for where they will fight in World War II, but I will not reveal anything more than that yes, Judean and German troops will fight.
 
OTL there was a Palestinian unit in the fighting in Greece and later in the war a brigade in Italy. Certainly they would be used for the takeover of Syria, any garrisoning of Israel so that functionally almost no British troops would be needed there. They will be used in North Africa - to the extent their formations are useful, infantry, logistics, medical etc as well as some aviation. They are used to the conditions and are right there. While there were some instances of western Jewish POWs treated badly, the Germans don't want to start that as they have enough POWs in western hands that retaliation is a real threat. As long as any nastiness was mimal and not part of general policy, the Germans knew their prisoners would be well treated by western forces. Since both sides were fighting without rules in the east, that was a different situation.
 
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