Environmentalism and Climate Change in an Axis Victory Scenario

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You must have a very loose use of the word "good", considering more than half of their rockets exploded or didn't even hit their target. Not to mention having no effect on the war, coming close to the viewpoint of Hitler disarming his forces, for how bad they performed. The rocket program only added around 2-3 years to their programs. The US and USSR had far greater resources than Germany and would make greater strides in progress than the Germans would.
Had the V2 was so unreliable as you say it was, Allies would more likely scrap them or hang them as a museum pieces. Had German engineers would be so bad as you say, they would be processed as standard nazi officials or hanged for involvement in forced labour. While OTL:
British did this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Backfire_(WWII)
Americans did this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_sounding_rocket
(and of course there was a recruiting operation aimed at German Engineers, hence elements copied from V2 were incorporated as far as Redstone missiles)
Russians went further and actually copied the whole system http://www.astronautix.com/r/r-1.html
And here we can learn more about the derivatives: http://www.astronautix.com/v/v-2.html

Considering that the science that would even be left would nothing but pseudo-science coming close to comic book logic, yes their science will effectively be gone.
While this cannot be disproved, I find it highly improbable. It wouldn't have precedent in previous history. While there were instances where net gain of some civilisation was lost to successors it never occurred without wide collapse of society. The closest instance could be destruction of Baghdad by Mongol Hordes in XIII century, where schollars were scattered and their knowledge faded to obscurity. However that few hundreds of scholars versus about a million or maybe even few millions with phd or masters in engineering in 40's Germany. It is far easier to disrupt system where you have one university in one city compared to system where you have close to hundred universities. Unless they win in some kind of mutual destruction scenario I can't see these people simply forgetting what they have learned, and suddenly stopping pursuing further discoveries.
Would Nazi regime stunt the growth of German science? Most likely. It can be proven that most innovative economies are those liberal, with free courts, and inventor friendly patent law.
Would it stop it or make the progress recede? Highly doubtful.
 
Has anyone ever done a real timeline on this? I often wonder to what extent the Nazis would've impressed some kind of pseudo-Evolian Nietzchean "New Man" upon the Germans. The Hotler Youth will certainly make society rather different as time progresses, but how different?

I don't know if they have, but it should exist. If not, it needs to exist. Nazism did not wish to see "vanilla fascism", or even just vanilla fascism plus racism, plus limited genocide. It wanted to see a bad acid trip of insanity brought upon Europe.
 
I don't know if they have, but it should exist. If not, it needs to exist.
I agree with you 100%.

There have been a number of Nazi victory TLs on this site that have included their genocides/atrocities in varying detail, the most recent one being Guns of the Reich. CalBear himself said that he couldn't stomach writing about life in the Nazi occupied East in AANW so there aren't too many people who can write in depth about the horrors and nightmares of a post war Nazi Europe.

It would quickly become torture/misery porn and many people can't handle reading that sort of story, even though it's intrinsic to the accuracy and realism of the story itself.
 
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I agree with you 100%.

There have been a number of Nazi victory TLs on this site that have included their genocides/atrocities in varying detail, the most recent one being Guns of the Reich. CalBear himself said that he couldn't stomach writing about life in the Nazi occupied East in AANW so there aren't too many people who can write in depth about all the horrors and nightmares of a post war Nazi Europe.

It would quickly become torture/misery porn and many people can't handle reading that sort of story, even though it's intrinsic to the accuracy and realism of the story itself.

Honest to god, here is my suggestion: Write it as a fantasy piece, with orcs and elves and all, based on what this would look like to lessen the emotional blow of the reality. So draft one is an adaptation. And then go back and replace the fictional names, races and places with the actual words, editing it from an adaptation based on the idea to being actually alternate history. Then post it.
 
The thing is, if you have an isolationist America, a decimated Soviet Union, all the European powers that are enemies under Nazi rule, the former colonies in disarray because of the collapse of the home government, and Japan doing its own thing in the East, then the Nazis really do have a complete and open reign in Europe. At worst, it could become like a political North Korea where the US may complain but the threat of nuclear exchange keeps it from directly interfering. Imagine a Maoist China, with Hitler Youth instead of the Red Guards, destroying centuries old landmarks and artifacts for a "new way forward", flocking to Berlin to see Hitler, reporting their parents as being counterrevolutionaries, traveling the country to indoctrinate everyone as their sacred duty, and taking on that quality of youth where they don't trust their parents or the social establishment and want to burn down the old world and forge a new one like the Red Guards or an evil inverse of the hippies, all for the man they were taught from birth was a god. If it were not in the name of such evil in and of itself, it would be deliciously ironic to see adults who supported Hitler in the 30s and 40s watch as their simple pleasures and middle class normalcy is burned away by the madness they themselves started. There are no record players with jazz music, cars, and weekend picnics in the countryside in Hitler's Germany in the long term. There is the insanity of a world burned over for some vague ideal of trucks carrying troops to no specific place through farmland while a gaudy Germania sits as the throne of power. It honestly is like a fantasy story, with the horror of what this really means when superimposed on reality, as it was in Mao's China and all the other Communist regimes in Asia. Nazi Germany does not want to be like the West, as strange as that seems because Europe embodies the West. To the Nazis, "the West" is decadence, corruption, and Judeo-Bolshevik Capitalism. The Nazis want to be a Nordic mythology.

But I am stealing away from the intended topic. I just really want to see someone write this scenario.
 
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Had the V2 was so unreliable as you say it was, Allies would more likely scrap them or hang them as a museum pieces. Had German engineers would be so bad as you say, they would be processed as standard nazi officials or hanged for involvement in forced labour. While OTL:
British did this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Backfire_(WWII)
Americans did this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_sounding_rocket
(and of course there was a recruiting operation aimed at German Engineers, hence elements copied from V2 were incorporated as far as Redstone missiles)
Russians went further and actually copied the whole system http://www.astronautix.com/r/r-1.html
And here we can learn more about the derivatives: http://www.astronautix.com/v/v-2.html
Except that all those showcase the V-2 as nothing but TESTS, which don't indicate whether they were advanced as NO direct copied V-2s ever went into service. They were testing them as late as 1952 and they still were failing. The same how France was utilizing German Panther tanks but abandoned them in 1947 because of their god-awful transmission which would break down so much. The Allies had tested lots of German technology just for sake of understanding how the tech. of the other side was and well, most of it had either been buggy and unreliable and had seen similar inventions be innovated before such German technology fell into their hands.


While this cannot be disproved, I find it highly improbable. It wouldn't have precedent in previous history. While there were instances where net gain of some civilisation was lost to successors it never occurred without wide collapse of society. The closest instance could be destruction of Baghdad by Mongol Hordes in XIII century, where schollars were scattered and their knowledge faded to obscurity. However that few hundreds of scholars versus about a million or maybe even few millions with phd or masters in engineering in 40's Germany. It is far easier to disrupt system where you have one university in one city compared to system where you have close to hundred universities. Unless they win in some kind of mutual destruction scenario I can't see these people simply forgetting what they have learned, and suddenly stopping pursuing further discoveries.
Would Nazi regime stunt the growth of German science? Most likely. It can be proven that most innovative economies are those liberal, with free courts, and inventor friendly patent law.
Would it stop it or make the progress recede? Highly doubtful.

Oh yes they would. Our precedent is the Dark Ages, where Western Europe, yes that area where one of the places for emerging modern science came from, had virtually no inventions or scientific progress at all. The Nazis took many of Europe's societal innovations such as socialism, democracy, and a promotion of diversity, and were able to destroy them from influence in 12 years quite surprisingly. If this had extended 5-10 years into the 50s, under a regime being much more influential and organized than the Middle Ages, the concepts of Aryan pseudo-science will pass as legitimate, while the sciences of the United States will seen as pseudo-science in that regard.
 

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Did you actually cared to read the information at the end of these links? Americans used V-2 as sounding rockets, and launched between 75 to 100 of them, while Russians did made their own military version. And of course these weren't exact copies, because the engineers that assembled them together had their own bunch of ideas how to make rockets better than fascist. Thats how people do, even the pirated constructions like Tupolev T-4 or Buran spaceplane, were both upgraded and localised compared to their original versions. Thats why I don't think your "New" Dark Age would ever happen. BTW... Don't tell me you are still buy this Dung Ages myth? Both technology and theory progressed immensely in these 1000 years. My point is people would use their minds trying to do better than the others. Be that those Yankees who fly over us with their spy plane, or just Hans next door. I am sure you have inventors and innovations in Somalia, even if the environment seems to be the most hostile to progress.

And how did a Panter got into discussion about rocketry?
 
Looking at the genetic engineering research the Nazis did even in the short time span they had, I'm left wondering if traditional estimates for population growth would even apply to the Nazis after a certain point. They were willing to do whatever it takes to pursue their goals, going well beyond traditional ethics... and it's entirely possible with drugs and/or genetic engineering they could start to increase the fertility rate of Germans artificially, through ensuring twins, triplets or even more being born at every birth. This combined with intense propaganda makes the population growth of the GGR very difficult to predict.

I only mention this because I think it possible that by 2017 Europe may have a similar or larger population than it does today. We have no way of knowing exactly what OTL Nazi wet dreams will lead to, but I think it's smarter to err on the side of taking their word than to believe they're going to settle into the outline of a "normal" authoritarian regime. That was a mistake many made when they dismissed the coming of the Holocaust, and look where that left us...
 
Did you actually cared to read the information at the end of these links? Americans used V-2 as sounding rockets, and launched between 75 to 100 of them, while Russians did made their own military version. And of course these weren't exact copies, because the engineers that assembled them together had their own bunch of ideas how to make rockets better than fascist. Thats how people do, even the pirated constructions like Tupolev T-4 or Buran spaceplane, were both upgraded and localised compared to their original versions. Thats why I don't think your "New" Dark Age would ever happen. BTW... Don't tell me you are still buy this Dung Ages myth? Both technology and theory progressed immensely in these 1000 years. My point is people would use their minds trying to do better than the others. Be that those Yankees who fly over us with their spy plane, or just Hans next door. I am sure you have inventors and innovations in Somalia, even if the environment seems to be the most hostile to progress.

And how did a Panter got into discussion about rocketry?

I actually did read those links and nothing of it disproves what I said. You seem to be ingrained in German tech wank. Now please explain how those V-2 sounding rockets contributed militarily? I guess America and the Soviet Union had no other way of doing it until V-2s came along. You really are overestimating what the Reich can accomplish. During the war, they NEVER figured out that their Enigma codes were broken, even in dire times, when they actually let their scientists to try and win the war, while the US had almost no clue that the Soviets had penetrated their Manhattan project. There will be no need to heavily emphasize science and technology in a German occupied Europe with Russia.

Oh there was progress in the Middle Ages, I don't deny it happened. Just it would be a lot faster if people weren't so fundamentalist about their beliefs, just like the Nazis will be with the pseudo racial beliefs. They countries in the Middle Ages didn't have the ability to easily monitor its citizens as the Reich would. No duh, we have inventors and innovations everywhere. Unfortunately, they can't be known or shared if the oppressive government is limiting their thought. No country in Africa has adopted such extreme racial theories as Nazi Germany had in its existence, and in a TL where they will be able to reign peace time with their conquests, it can only get worse beyond imagination.

Why did you bring up the Soviet Tu-4 and Buran? To discuss the technologies of nations, in order to increase their technological savy. You brought up the V-2 as saying it was very helpful. I brought up the Panther while discussing the V-2 in my counterargument to showcase how the weapons Germany had created were eventually just abandoned or scrapped only a few years after the war because they couldn't be useful at all. What German wunderwaffe development did was only helpful to the Allies for symbolic reasons, as witnessing Germany's attempted, yet futile, attempt at developing "super weapons" to try and win the war, the US and the USSR became inspired to do what they attempted to do in order to become more technologically advanced than the other side. Only difference is they got it right.

If they lost more than HALF of their academic student pool in peacetime between 1933 and 1939, it would be nothing compared to a post 1945 Europe where Nazis are able to impose their will on any lands they conquered. Their military victories will the only arguments they need to disregard any attempt at scientific progress.
 
That's a tough question OP. How do you factor in nuclear autumn or literal fallout from a likely German civil war in the 50s or 60s as we see an analogue of the cultural revolution in China as a real possibility into climate change calculation.

The late John Reilly once suggested the Reich going cultural revolution once hitler or whoever directly follows him is gone and I can see it.
 
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