Environmentalism and Climate Change in an Axis Victory Scenario

[Osakadave]

I was thinking this morning that I don't remember seeing anything dealing specifically with environmentalism or climate change in Axis victory scenarios.

So, in a generic Axis victory, TL, how would environmental issues,and in particular global climate change, be dealt with?

OTL, a lot of the early climate change research was essentially aside benefit of the Cold War. Would an Axis victory slow that or hasten it? What would an Axis response look like once it was confirmed?

And what about other environmental issues? Considering some of the conservation tendencies of the Nazis (the Reichsnaturschutzgesetz, for example), what would environmentalism look like in an Axis victory scenario?

 

[thatcoolmartian]

Well, it depends. The Nazis, assuming the worst, wouldn't care much, as a large portion of land that would be affected would be inhabitanted by untermensch anyway, so it wouldn't be worth it to cripple German industrialism to save lesser people's. They may begin to take action after they realize what affect it could have on the food they grow. Or if some pandemic were to spread.

 

[Osakadave]

Well, it depends. The Nazis, assuming the worst, wouldn't care much, as a large portion of land that would be affected would be inhabitanted by untermensch anyway, so it wouldn't be worth it to cripple German industrialism to save lesser people's. They may begin to take action after they realize what affect it could have on the food they grow. Or if some pandemic were to spread.

Considering that one reason for their genicide was rid the land of those they considered to be pollution, I'd say that's backwards.

 

[thatcoolmartian]

Considering that one reason for their genicide was rid the land of those they considered to be pollution, I'd say that's backwards.

I was referring to small islands. Also, the Nazis wouldn't be able to conquer every piece of the planet. Some places would remain inhabitanted by those they deem inferior.

 

[ArtisticCritic]

Nazi Germany would probably put up some conversation lands specifically for animals to thrive in, as they were very advocative for animal rights. These would take place in the East, especially as colonization by German families would not take place overnight. German industrialism would still grow, but the Nazis would still expand rural life. The rump Soviet Union, on the other hand, may be much more polluted. The Russians would surely seek to industrialize east of the Urals and strengthen their army so that they would never lose again. Britain unless conquered by the Nazis, would likely increase its industry. But America will likely suffer most out of all of this though. Nazi Germany would be a more provocative enemy than the Soviets OTL, so the Americans would increase armaments productions by a larger scale. Ironically, the Axis Powers would have less pollution than the remaining Allies.

 

[Riain]

The Nazis had an interest in things like resurrecting the Aurochs as well as depopulating huge swathes of eastern Europe, so I imagine there would be large tracts of land re-wilded as a Nazi environmentalist wet dream.

A second factor might be the impact of a Nazi victory on the Green Revolution of the 1950-70s where agricultural production boomed with new strains of food crops, leading to massive population increases. If these don't occur or are slowed right down by Nazi victory then the environmental pressure caused by the surge in population after WW2 would be reduced considerably, although I don't know how much.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Nazi Germany would probably put up some conversation lands specifically for animals to thrive in, as they were very advocative for human rights. These would take place in the East, especially as colonization by German families would not take place overnight. German industrialism would still grow, but the Nazis would still expand rural life. The rump Soviet Union, on the other hand, may be much more polluted. The Russians would surely seek to industrialize east of the Urals and strengthen their army so that they would never lose again. Britain unless conquered by the Nazis, would likely increase its industry. But America will likely suffer most out of all of this though. Nazi Germany would be a more provocative enemy than the Soviets OTL, so the Americans would increase armaments productions by a larger scale. Ironically, the Axis Powers would have less pollution than the remaining Allies.

Typo?

 

[ArtisticCritic]

Typo?

I meant animal rights. Sorry.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

The Nazis had an interest in things like resurrecting the Aurochs as well as depopulating huge swathes of eastern Europe, so I imagine there would be large tracts of land re-wilded as a Nazi environmentalist wet dream.

A second factor might be the impact of a Nazi victory on the Green Revolution of the 1950-70s where agricultural production boomed with new strains of food crops, leading to massive population increases. If these don't occur or are slowed right down by Nazi victory then the environmental pressure caused by the surge in population after WW2 would be reduced considerably, although I don't know how much.

"The Fuhrer Needs Corn" is a timeline I would read. I can easily see the Nazis taking agricultural science further in the pursuit of a population explosion and better utilization of land, engineering new crops with higher yields and better endurance to the climate.

 

[Gorrister]

I don't think draining the Mediterranean would've done wonders for the environment.

 

[DerWonderWaffles]

@ObssesedNuker @wiking

I really think this is a thread you guys should respond to. Anyway I'll post my theory on what would have happened.

While murdering the local populace would decrease carbon emissions, they were highly anti-science and probably wouldn't advance much in terms of science, since they gutted their education in the 1930s and would continue to focus on military production(which of course requires the most demanding amounts of coal and oil) to focus on Generalplan Ost, and the need to defend themselves against the WAllies.Subsequently, the WAllies would probably engage in some form of armament in order to prepare against an aggressive Germany. Germany was believed to be much stronger then, so naturally the US/UK will spend huge amounts of industry on military hardware and that of course will lead to polluting.

So pollution in this timeline would be probably be the same as before, considering military armament on both sides, but taking in the Nazis genocidal plans.

EDIT: @wcv215 your opinion on this piece? Just curious

 

[Deleted member 1487]

@ObssesedNuker @wiking

I really think this is a thread you guys should respond to. Anyway I'll post my theory on what would have happened.

Thanks for thinking of me, but I spend entirely too much time arguing about horrible Nazi victory scenarios. After discussing something similar in my TL about a Nazi victory suffice to say that a large part of Europe woud return to wilderness.

 

[Riain]

"The Fuhrer Needs Corn" is a timeline I would read. I can easily see the Nazis taking agricultural science further in the pursuit of a population explosion and better utilization of land, engineering new crops with higher yields and better endurance to the climate.

I am not an expert so am just throwing this out there but the main geopolitical driving force behind the Green Revolution was the US desire to reduce communist insurgency by providing food in poor countries without socialist leaning land reform. So with a Nazi victory there would be less need for agricultural improvement in the third world to counter communist insurgency. Thus the push factors will be reduced and the famine cycle so common in the third world until the 50s would likely continue for a few more decades, keeping population low compared to otl. Low population means less demand on the environment and therefore less damage.

 

[oofo]

Well I know that Alfred Rosenberg made suggestions to turn the entirety of Belarus into a massive nature reserve.

Sounds nice at first but then you realize that the entire population of Belarus would be exterminated / forcibly removed.

IIRC quite a few Nazis higher-ups had some environmentalist views and in an axis victory there would probably be a few nature reserves set up in the depopulated areas of the USSR.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Well I know that Alfred Rosenberg made suggestions to turn the entirety of Belarus into a massive nature reserve.

Sounds nice at first but then you realize that the entire population of Belarus would be exterminated / forcibly removed.

IIRC quite a few Nazis higher-ups had some environmentalist views and in an axis victory there would probably be a few nature reserves set up in the depopulated areas of the USSR.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nazi Europe would be a continent-wide Khmer Rouge. There's not going to be normality in Nazi Europe in the long term; that was all to keep the masses on board. It would quickly become a surrealist hellscape right out of Pink Floyd's worst "The Wall" acid trip.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

I was thinking this morning that I don't remember seeing anything dealing specifically with environmentalism or climate change in Axis victory scenarios.

So, in a generic Axis victory, TL, how would environmental issues,and in particular global climate change, be dealt with?

OTL, a lot of the early climate change research was essentially aside benefit of the Cold War. Would an Axis victory slow that or hasten it? What would an Axis response look like once it was confirmed?

And what about other environmental issues? Considering some of the conservation tendencies of the Nazis (the Reichsnaturschutzgesetz, for example), what would environmentalism look like in an Axis victory scenario?

Well, a generic Nazi victory would result in a Cold War with the Anglo-Americans anyways, so probably no difference on that specific subject. As for an Axis victory's impact on climate change itself... probably slow it. The genocide of Eastern Europe and economic ruin induced by Nazi policies on the continent as a whole would probably result in quite a bit of deindustrialization.

 

[Flashman]

One factor that I think isn't being taken into proper consideration is Japan. Will Japanese China be more or less industrialized then OTL China? I'd wager less, since to my knowledge the Japanese ultimately intended it to be a settler colony, and thus would've massively depopulated the locals.

I don't think draining the Mediterranean would've done wonders for the environment.

Myth. The Nazis demonstrated no active support for Atlantropa, and arguably less than post-war Europe. It's certainly not inconsistent with Nazi ideology, but it's so insane, impractical, and damaging to local economies that I'm not sure why you would ever put it into action, especially when you've suddenly acquired all these Reichkommisariats in the east.

That said, I'm not sure what the effects of Atlantropa would've been outside of the Med.

they were highly anti-science

Oversimplification. They were certainly hostile towards "intellectualism" (meaning thought that does not have clearly applicable practice value) and "jewish science", but certainly not science as a whole. As their top of the line general engineering, horrific medical experiments, and rocketry demonstrates, Nazis were not uniformly anti-science if they believed it would glorify the Volk.

They certainly purged their educational system, deemed intellectuals suspicious, and pushed some fucking whacky theories, but the exact same could be said of the soviets, who purged almost anyone with a modicum of technical competence in the 30s, constantly suspected intellectuals of being secret Bourgeoise, and pushed ideas like Lamarkian evolution in the name of ideology. And yet, they managed to develop the nuke very quickly (albeit with extensive infiltration), and some technology far in advance of the US in the space race.

If the GGR is in a similar situation, they have the benefits that they have the scientific institutions and traditions of all of Western Europe behind them as additional support (albeit in a depleted and purged form), institutions which have always been stronger en their Russian counterparts

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nazi Europe would be a continent-wide Khmer Rouge. There's not going to be normality in Nazi Europe in the long term; that was all to keep the masses on board. It would quickly become a surrealist hellscape right out of Pink Floyd's worst "The Wall" acid trip.

Has anyone ever done a real timeline on this? I often wonder to what extent the Nazis would've impressed some kind of pseudo-Evolian Nietzchean "New Man" upon the Germans. The Hotler Youth will certainly make society rather different as time progresses, but how different?

 

[DerWonderWaffles]

Oversimplification. They were certainly hostile towards "intellectualism" (meaning thought that does not have clearly applicable practice value) and "jewish science", but certainly not science as a whole. As their top of the line general engineering, horrific medical experiments, and rocketry demonstrates, Nazis were not uniformly anti-science if they believed it would glorify the Volk.

They certainly purged their educational system, deemed intellectuals suspicious, and pushed some fucking whacky theories, but the exact same could be said of the soviets, who purged almost anyone with a modicum of technical competence in the 30s, constantly suspected intellectuals of being secret Bourgeoise, and pushed ideas like Lamarkian evolution in the name of ideology. And yet, they managed to develop the nuke very quickly (albeit with extensive infiltration), and some technology far in advance of the US in the space race.

If the GGR is in a similar situation, they have the benefits that they have the scientific institutions and traditions of all of Western Europe behind them as additional support (albeit in a depleted and purged form), institutions which have always been stronger en their Russian counterparts

Oversimplification? The very distinct differences coming between the Nazis and the Soviets was race. The Soviets weren't concerned with race, while the Nazis are. Jewish physics are going to push them back farther than what the soviets have done, along with the fact that their intelligence agency was a total joke and had no chance of ever penetrating the US's secrets.

Also whatever "general engineering" you are referring to did help them in making good tanks and jets as, the US/UK were jets as well. Only difference was they didn't just throw anything they could, they waited to see if it could be used very effectively after hundreds of tests concerning flight patterns and jet engine reliability and power.
Their medical science didn't produce anything valuable. Nothing at all. Shooting ink into peoples eyes and dropping people in cold water is obviously bad and they didn't take much notes for their experiments, which is important when determining the variable of a hypothetical issue you are testing. Rocketry was good? Never knew killing more of your workers than the other side was considered "top of the line."

In the aftermath of a victory, war disease will surely take them as it in France believing everything will be a short war, which is why they lose against the USSR. In this slim scenario, they will be even more cocky and stress the ideals of Aryan fighting spirit and strength more than anything. Whatever science they will acquire in Western Europe will be virtually gone in around a decade, so that won't even matter.

 

[Insider]

Yes their rocketry was good. I think that the best credit of it comes from French, British, Soviet, and American engineers who went and straight out copied it (yes they made changes, it is obvious, but they took german missiles and german engineers and worked on their version). Damn... I don't know, sometimes I feel that some people have personal grunge against V2 instead of nazis.

Whatever science they will acquire in Western Europe will be virtually gone in around a decade, so that won't even matter.

but science don't work that way. It cannot be "gone" save a societal collapse like the end of the Roman Empire. Of course it can become stagnant and static, but "gone"? Just how...?

 

[DerWonderWaffles]

Yes their rocketry was good. I think that the best credit of it comes from French, British, Soviet, and American engineers who went and straight out copied it (yes they made changes, it is obvious, but they took german missiles and german engineers and worked on their version). Damn... I don't know, sometimes I feel that some people have personal grunge against V2 instead of nazis.

You must have a very loose use of the word "good", considering more than half of their rockets exploded or didn't even hit their target. Not to mention having no effect on the war, coming close to the viewpoint of Hitler disarming his forces, for how bad they performed. The rocket program only added around 2-3 years to their programs. The US and USSR had far greater resources than Germany and would make greater strides in progress than the Germans would.

but science don't work that way. It cannot be "gone" save a societal collapse like the end of the Roman Empire. Of course it can become stagnant and static, but "gone"? Just how...?

Considering that the science that would even be left would nothing but pseudo-science coming close to comic book logic, yes their science will effectively be gone.