Entente military operations 1919-1920

Assume for a moment Russia is defeated in the field a year earlier, & Germany is able to benefit from this in terms of food & other essential resources. there is no imeadiate collapse in the latter half of 1918.

So, the western Entente nations continue offensive operations into 1919 as intended. What would these military operations be like & how is Entente strategy affected.

I am thinking first there will be larger preiphrial ops, enabled by the fresh US corps that are combat ready in the winter of 1918-19.
 

Deleted member 1487

Assume for a moment Russia is defeated in the field a year earlier, & Germany is able to benefit from this in terms of food & other essential resources. there is no imeadiate collapse in the latter half of 1918.

So, the western Entente nations continue offensive operations into 1919 as intended. What would these military operations be like & how is Entente strategy affected.

I am thinking first there will be larger preiphrial ops, enabled by the fresh US corps that are combat ready in the winter of 1918-19.

So before or after Brusilov's offensive? If its before than Italy is probably knocked out and given that this is before US entry then Germany probably can get the Entente to negotiate and end the war before the US gets involved due to fear of the German offensive potential in 1917.
Let's say Russian falls apart in early 1917 for some reason and goes into civil war, pretty much their situation from October 1917 on IOTL. No Kerensky offensive, A-H is still somewhat stable, there is an early Caporetto and Italy is messed up pretty bad. By the end of 1917 then Germany can do some damage in the West long before the US is a serious concern and the British are tied up in Passchendaele assuming them even attack. That's during the French mutinies, which can be problematic if they aren't willing to counter attack. So even then the entire consideration of the war lasting into 1919-20 with an earlier Russian collapse is thrown into doubt.

Maybe a better option would be no Hindenburg Programm, which then keeps the German economy far more balanced, so no Turnip Winter, Coal Crisis, Transport Crisis, and far less labor unrest without the military trying to conscript labor in service of industrialists. Not sure how you can get that with Ludendorff in power though. Still it keeps Germany materially in a better place to continue resisting into 1919.

In that case there is going to be major offensive right in the center, Germany was the center of gravity of the entire Central Power's effort, so even as A-H and the Ottomans collapse Germany still needs to be beaten so the main effort is going to be the invasion of Germany. That means likely a winter offensive in Alsace by the Franco-American forces with another wide front combined arms proto-blitzkrieg to the Rhein after which point the Germans pretty much have to give up. WW1 is not WW2 and the German elite want to remain in power and once the Rhein is the frontline they would be dealing with major pressure to negotiate and end the war.
 
Assume for a moment Russia is defeated in the field a year earlier, & Germany is able to benefit from this in terms of food & other essential resources. there is no imeadiate collapse in the latter half of 1918.

So, the western Entente nations continue offensive operations into 1919 as intended. What would these military operations be like & how is Entente strategy affected.

I am thinking first there will be larger preiphrial ops, enabled by the fresh US corps that are combat ready in the winter of 1918-19.

Maybe the French cross the Rhine and advancing forward into Germany, British, Belgian Americans troops take part in this joint operation. Also the Czechoslovak Legion takes part in this. The Italians occupy Tyrol and finally threaten the Bavarian border (OTL Italian airplanes flew over Munich). Allied troops closing in Berlin which desperately asks for reinforcements. the Reich is dangerously close to dissolve . The German Generals still want to win the war and ask the kaiser to sacrifce his life on the front to create martyrdom mythos (OTL suggestion !). The Kaiser dies and the crownprince is appointed Kaiser. Now in April 1920 hundreds of thousand Entente soldiers with tanks and planes are already taking the outskirts of Berlin while Ludendorff sits in a cellar angrily accusing Social Democrats for the defeat.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Maybe the French cross the Rhine and advancing forward into Germany, British, Belgian Americans troops take part in this joint operation. Also the Czechoslovak Legion takes part in this. The Italians occupy Tyrol and finally threaten the Bavarian border (OTL Italian airplanes flew over Munich). Allied troops closing in Berlin which desperately sks for reinforcements. the Reich is dangerously close to dissolve . The German Generals still want to win the war and ask the kaiser to sacrify his life on the front to create martyrdom mythos (OTL suggestion !). The Kaiser dies and the crownprince is appointed Kaiser. Now in April 1920 hundreds of thousand Entente soldiers are already taking the outskirts of Berlin while Ludendorf sits in a cellar angrily accusing Social Democrats for the defeat.
How would the Czechoslovaks help? They were stuck in Siberia in 1919.
 
How would the Czechoslovaks help? They were stuck in Siberia in 1919.

True but not entirely. Directly after Czechoslovakia declared independence and after Emperor basically told his soldiers he is annulling their oaths Czechs as well later Slovaks were organizing their regiments around former A-H regiments. By this act Czechoslovak legions in Italy grew from 20 000 to 80 000! Almost 60 battalions were built from Czech and Slovak POW in Italy who kept their oath to emperor to last day.

It would not be game changer but Germans would need troops to pacify these areas.
 

Deleted member 1487

True but not entirely. Directly after Czechoslovakia declared independence and after Emperor basically told his soldiers he is annulling their oaths Czechs as well later Slovaks were organizing their regiments around former A-H regiments. By this act Czechoslovak legions in Italy grew from 20 000 to 80 000! Almost 60 battalions were built from Czech and Slovak POW in Italy who kept their oath to emperor to last day.

It would not be game changer but Germans would need troops to pacify these areas.
Yeah, but if the Germans keep resisting A-H probably limps on and that dissolution holds off.

If the war drags on into 1919 then the Entente likely loses.
How>
 
Yeah, but if the Germans keep resisting A-H probably limps on and that dissolution holds off.
Probably. Or A-H collapse on Italian front and Germans will need to prop them up. Anyway, Czechoslovak Legions either Russian or Italian (if they managed to recruit more men, which they probably would if war drags on) are only small drop in the sea of regiments.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
Probably. Or A-H collapse on Italian front and Germans will need to prop them up. Anyway, Czechoslovak Legions either Russian or Italian (if they managed to recruit more men, which they probably would if war drags on) are only small drop in the sea of regiments.

I think an Italian collapse is far more likely to happen. Perhaps the front is not stabilized after Caporetto and the Italians cannot get themselves together until they dig in behind the Po River.

This could be accomplished by having an even harsher disciplinary outlook than OTL, with Cadorna not replaced and basically waging war on his own troops, as well as Socialist Agitation in the ranks and rampant defeatism that sees entire Divisions surrender.

The CP would struggle to keep up with the collapse, but more Germans in the area would help.
 
Pershing and the USA planned to have 2 million men for the spring 1919 planned AEF contribution to an offensive. It will take one growing season for the German occupied parts of Russia (assuming a Brest-Litvosk analogue), so it will be a while before the food situation in Germany gets better - likewise any improve in raw materials.

Even with no drain from the east, Germany (and A-H) simply cannot match the manpower and industrial capacity of the Entente + USA. I think that while Germany and A-H might carry on to 1919 with the Russians throwing in the sponge sooner, the Ottomans will quit more or less on schedule.

The USA coming in stiffened French morale and, in that sense, allowed its army to catch its breath and avoid total collapse which could have happened with the mutinies. If Germany can't get the Entente to quit prior to the US DoW or at least before any US troops show up in Europe, they are going to "lose" however they might be able to get a better peace if Russia quits sooner - with 2 million US troops ready to go in Europe by spring 1919 Wilson will have more leverage and if the Germans offer something reasonable for a peace he may be able to force France and the UK to accept it.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
If the war drags on into 1919 then the Entente likely loses.

It is possible, if A-H and the Ottomans both hold on.

But both collapsed and were in the process of dissolution. Germany alone cannot sustain the war into 1919; the numbers against them would be ridiculous.
 
As allways much depends on when and the resulting actions. If the Germans ride the high tide after Russia and France and or Britain show weakness, Imo it is likely that the USW could be shelfed (at least for a time).

That will likely impact USA public oppinion, and as in OTL, before the Germans unleashed USW the USA was slowly sliding away from the Entente.

So I personaly do not see the war going into 1919. Maybe late 18, but I think it would reach a conclusion in early to mid 1918. Either way, with the USA enterin earlier because the Germans concentrate more on the west and the Entente winning or without USA entry and a probable CP victory.
 
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