Enhanced ADF

I am still prejudiced against the MRH 90, particularly after a couple of conversations with aircrew from a number of countries.

Whereas I am prejudiced against the opinions of sulky aircrew who bitch about the MRH90, as if they didn't specify what the DMO bought. I had an RN LtCdr on exchange tell me the Army just needs to get over the Blackhawk and get on board with the MRH90. They're like kids who are in love with their first car, you're a grown-up now, time to move on.

While on the subject of helicopters, an order was placed in about 1971 for 11 AH1G, 42 UH1H and 72 OH58A. But with the wind down of Vietnam this order was reduced to 12 UH1H and 56 OH58A and the AH1G was dropped.
 
I have no issues with the MRH90 - it looks like a new modern affordable medium helo design for those people who cannot afford a AW101 Merlin or Latest Blackhawk :p

While my attitude remains follow the USMC in as many ways as possible I would suggest that they stand up a 'Regiment' of Apache AH1 (the Agustawestland Variant) as this is designed to operate at sea on RN ships and the Apache's legacy sells itself - otherwise get some AH1 'Vipers' like the Marines
 
Well there were quite a few sulky aircrew from a range of sources including RAN, Australian Army and RN. While their criticisms were IMO valid, I think a large component of their unhappiness stems from the initial teething problems associated with integrating any new weapons systems into service. I'll revisit the issue in five years to see if those issues have been resolved, and I suspect that they will be.

That 1971 order was always a tremendous WI for the ADF and, I've always wondered how AH - 1 Gs would have changed operational doctrine for the RAAF and Army.

BTW when are you going to reboot your Bureaucratic Reorganisation TL?
 
Before we gearheads at AH.com get too excited at buying new gears for the ADF, what exactly are the missions that the ADF need to fullfill? Need to make sure capability match mission, not vice versa.

Also, is there sufficient manpower to use all the new gears?

Further, what would be the effect to the gov budget recurrently? The maintainence cost through out the life of the equipment is often more expensive than the initial capital needed to buy thr equipment. If that is taken into account, how many new equipment can be bought and maintained? Don't forget increase in personnel expediture.
 
Before we gearheads at AH.com get too excited at buying new gears for the ADF, what exactly are the missions that the ADF need to fullfill? Need to make sure capability match mission, not vice versa.

Also, is there sufficient manpower to use all the new gears?

Further, what would be the effect to the gov budget recurrently? The maintainence cost through out the life of the equipment is often more expensive than the initial capital needed to buy thr equipment. If that is taken into account, how many new equipment can be bought and maintained? Don't forget increase in personnel expediture.

Post 18 provides a quote from a paper with regards to the doctrinal change required to underpin an increase in budget expenditure.
 
Something to consider with increasing the size and changing force posture of the ADF is recruitment and retention. When total uniformed numbers go to about 70,000 the ADF struggles to find and retain people to fill these positions, and forward-positioning units in Darwin, Tindal, Broome and the like increases separation rates which is why 1st Brigade is half in Darwin and half in Adelaide, with the recently finish railway line to Darwin being the key to moving the Brigade's gear north in a crisis.

So perhaps an earlier Adelaide-Darwin rail line is a prerequisite for a larger ADF, which would also help with providing bulk fuel to RAAF Tindal should Darwin's port be put under pressure.

I also think a change in mindset is needed, which is why I went that way with my old TL. A change of mindset away from slotting niche capabilities into coalitions toward providing a balanced force with a complete set of capabilities. Vietnam provided the raw material for this sort of deployment but Australian command arrangements were not mature enough to take advantage of it. Once its proven the Government will change its attitude to the ADF and its utility.
 
That's always been the issue, you can get people through the front door, but how can you keep them?

The sole exception to that rule is the RAAF, which has a retention rate that most civilian companies would envy.
 
So we're starting in the '70s but before the Whitlam Government came to power (1972), so we might as well say at the beginning of the '72-'73 financial year. Ironically, defence spending for that year was in the range specified at 2.6% of GDP, but fell to 2.4% the following year and hovered between that and 2.3% until a brief spike in the early '80s (hitting 2.6% in '82-'83). If we said that defence spending was retained at even just 2.6%, through the '70s, then the difference is at least 8.3% or so every year. That's a significant increase. But you have to weigh this against the fact that the inflation rate was very high through these years, which affected wages and other costs. Still, it should lead to some major changes.

If we look at what the Whitlam Government did when it came to power, it not only immediately ended conscription (which I don't think there is any driver to change necessarily), it also paid off the HMAS Sydney, disbanded one of the four operational squadrons of Mirages, and halved the Sea King order from 20 aircraft to 10. So, if the funding is not cut, we could at least see the latter two decisions butterflied away. The last of these is particularly important.

If the RAN ends up with 20 Sea Kings, and you have a bipartisan commitment to maintaining defence funding above 2.5% of GDP, then you are much more likely to see a replacement of the HMAS Melbourne. Assuming much of the planning and studies (and internal politics) goes as historical, then what you have is a decision being made in 1980 to acquire a purpose-designed ship equipped with helicopters for anti-submarine warfare, with the capability to operate STOVL aircraft. At the time, the preferred option was - I believe - a modified Iwo Jima Class to be built in the US with gas turbines. Historically, the decision wasn't made and there was much dithering until the carrier wasn't replaced directly, but rather with the building of two more Adelaide-Class FFGs (Oliver Hazard Perry-Class). Here, funds would not be so tight and you'd have twice the Sea Kings already in service, so I think it likely that we will see a new ASW carrier built in the US and entering service in the mid '80s.

With a continuing increase in funding compared to the historical, I think we would also likely see a buy of Sea Harriers - maybe as many as 16 single-seaters and four two-seaters - to restore a fighter capability to the Fleet Air Arm. (I'm expecting a gap between the Melbourne leaving service and the replacement commissioning.) While talking about the Fleet Air Arm, I think we're also less likely to see such a gap between the commissioning of the Adelaide-Class FFGs and the introduction of the SH-60s.

The above - together with the additional defence investment - would see further changes. I've mentioned that the two additional Adelaide-Class FFGs wouldn't have been built in the mid-80s as replacements - in effect - for the Melbourne. But I think it likely that frigates would still have been built, just as replacements for the River-Class. The first of these paid off in the mid '80s. That means that, in effect, you have the Anzac program brought forward, and this would have looked very different. The Adelaide-Class might have been chosen, but perhaps four instead of six or eight ships. Then in the '90s you might see work begin on a class of four new destroyers to replace the three Perths. If not Burkes ordered from the US, then maybe a domestic built, upgraded version of the Spruance / Kidd design.

In terms of support, interestingly enough another order cancelled by the Whitman Government was for a replenishment ship to replace HMAS Supply. This would have been known as HMAS Protector. Not only would this order likely not have been cancelled, but a follow-on ship may have been ordered. This butterflies away the historical HMAS Supply. You might also see a second Tobruk ordered.

Another interesting fact is that there was originally an order for four additional Oberon Class submarines - on top of the four already then in service - that was cut to two in the early '70s. Now if that decision doesn't happen then you have eight boats in service from the early '80s, and we could also expect an earlier and larger Collins program.

This is all just considering the Navy, but I think this is where the changes would be most evident.
 
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By 1973 the RAAF had crashed 19 Mirages, so disbanding a squadron wasn't just about money. The RAAF also didn't want to keep the Phantoms because they were afraid that it would push the Mirage replacement way out, at the time they expected to have it replaced by 1980.
 
By 1973 the RAAF had crashed 19 Mirages, so disbanding a squadron wasn't just about money. The RAAF also didn't want to keep the Phantoms because they were afraid that it would push the Mirage replacement way out, at the time they expected to have it replaced by 1980.

That's true, but look what happened when we lost a bunch of Trackers in a fire. You can always replace your losses, not cut your force. There's another possibility that you mention there - keep the Phantoms. Given the POD here, maybe we could have seen more F-4s acquired so that the RAAF had two operational squadrons each with the F-4 and the Mirage. We only lost one of those we got in 1970, so we could have got as few as another 13 and operated two smaller squadrons and a conversion flight.
 
For what its worth the 5.5" Howitzers were replaced by the 155mm M198 in 1983. Personally I'd like the proposed 155mm GCT AUF2 turret on the Leopard 1 chassis instead, the AMX30 based GCT AUF1 of 1977 was faster than the M109 with a higher Rate of Fire.

french-155.jpg
 
So we're starting in the '70s but before the Whitlam Government came to power (1972), so we might as well say at the beginning of the '72-'73 financial year. Ironically, defence spending for that year was in the range specified at 2.6% of GDP, but fell to 2.4% the following year and hovered between that and 2.3% until a brief spike in the early '80s (hitting 2.6% in '82-'83). If we said that defence spending was retained at even just 2.6%, through the '70s, then the difference is at least 8.3% or so every year. That's a significant increase. But you have to weigh this against the fact that the inflation rate was very high through these years, which affected wages and other costs. Still, it should lead to some major changes.

If we look at what the Whitlam Government did when it came to power, it not only immediately ended conscription (which I don't think there is any driver to change necessarily), it also paid off the HMAS Sydney, disbanded one of the four operational squadrons of Mirages, and halved the Sea King order from 20 aircraft to 10. So, if the funding is not cut, we could at least see the latter two decisions butterflied away. The last of these is particularly important.

If the RAN ends up with 20 Sea Kings, and you have a bipartisan commitment to maintaining defence funding above 2.5% of GDP, then you are much more likely to see a replacement of the HMAS Melbourne. Assuming much of the planning and studies (and internal politics) goes as historical, then what you have is a decision being made in 1980 to acquire a purpose-designed ship equipped with helicopters for anti-submarine warfare, with the capability to operate STOVL aircraft. At the time, the preferred option was - I believe - a modified Iwo Jima Class to be built in the US with gas turbines. Historically, the decision wasn't made and there was much dithering until the carrier wasn't replaced directly, but rather with the building of two more Adelaide-Class FFGs (Oliver Hazard Perry-Class). Here, funds would not be so tight and you'd have twice the Sea Kings already in service, so I think it likely that we will see a new ASW carrier built in the US and entering service in the mid '80s.

With a continuing increase in funding compared to the historical, I think we would also likely see a buy of Sea Harriers - maybe as many as 16 single-seaters and four two-seaters - to restore a fighter capability to the Fleet Air Arm. (I'm expecting a gap between the Melbourne leaving service and the replacement commissioning.) While talking about the Fleet Air Arm, I think we're also less likely to see such a gap between the commissioning of the Adelaide-Class FFGs and the introduction of the SH-60s.

The above - together with the additional defence investment - would see further changes. I've mentioned that the two additional Adelaide-Class FFGs wouldn't have been built in the mid-80s as replacements - in effect - for the Melbourne. But I think it likely that frigates would still have been built, just as replacements for the River-Class. The first of these paid off in the mid '80s. That means that, in effect, you have the Anzac program brought forward, and this would have looked very different. The Adelaide-Class might have been chosen, but perhaps four instead of six or eight ships. Then in the '90s you might see work begin on a class of four new destroyers to replace the three Perths. If not Burkes ordered from the US, then maybe a domestic built, upgraded version of the Spruance / Kidd design.

In terms of support, interestingly enough another order cancelled by the Whitman Government was for a replenishment ship to replace HMAS Supply. This would have been known as HMAS Protector. Not only would this order likely not have been cancelled, but a follow-on ship may have been ordered. This butterflies away the historical HMAS Supply. You might also see a second Tobruk ordered.

Another interesting fact is that there was originally an order for four additional Oberon Class submarines - on top of the four already then in service - that was cut to two in the early '70s. Now if that decision doesn't happen then you have eight boats in service from the early '80s, and we could also expect an earlier and larger Collins program.

This is all just considering the Navy, but I think this is where the changes would be most evident.
Would the planned Light Destroyers have been built? IIRC 3 or 4 were planned but their place was taken by the 4 American built patrol frigates.
 
Is the purchase of the Kidd’s an option in this scenario. I seem to recall that this was offered at one point. I would expect that this purchase would mean early retirement of the Perth Class DDG’s
 
Is the purchase of the Kidd’s an option in this scenario. I seem to recall that this was offered at one point. I would expect that this purchase would mean early retirement of the Perth Class DDG’s

They were offered in the 90s iirc, but turned down due to the problems associated with Kanimbla and Manoora.
 
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