English Britanny?

Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of:

NEK'S WACKY PERSONAL UNIONS!!!
(THAT WERE ACTUALLY PLANNED IN OTL AND ARE AWESOME)

As I was Genociding for my latest attempt at a Bosworth TL, I came across this nugget in the article for Anne of Brittany:

Wikipedia said:
Brittany being an attractive prize, Anne had no shortage of suitors. She was officially promised in marriage to Edward, Prince of Wales, son of Edward IV of England in 1483; however, the boy disappeared, and was presumed dead, soon after the death of Edward IV and the accession of his brother, Richard III.

And on the Edward V page:

King Edward IV concluded an alliance in 1480 with the Duke of Brittany, Francis II, and both decided to betroth their heirs, Edward (10 years old) and Anne (4 years old), to each other, promising to marry them at their majority. The devolution of Brittany would have been given to the second child to be born, the first becoming prince of Wales. Those plans disappeared together with Edward V.
So, the second child (it doesn't explicitly specify girls) would be the Duke/Duchess of Brittany, and England would have a firmer stronghold over France.

Of course, this depends on Edward lasting longer than Uncle Richard would approve of. Perhaps King Edward survives for longer - another decade would have him die at fifty, not inconceivably old - and Richard is caught out.

And, of course, France would hate this. It was bad enough when Brittany was about to become Habsburg IOTL (no doubt the subject of a future Wacky Personal Union), but English would be a kick in the face. We could see a war here...

Comments?
 
That would be cool.

So if Edward IV lives another decade as you said the other Edward V, wouldn't need a protector.

But didn't people say (and i stress this is only what i think ive read on here before) that Edward V was ill and could of died fairly soon anyway and his brother, the other Richard :D would become king - or protector at least, if we assume he has 2 sons.

What if he has only one though, that would mean the same some would hold Brittany and England - could that son give Brittany to his 2nd child.

I have a feeling France would invade though, find some pretence etc
 

Thande

Donor
I thought by the 15th century the position of Duke of Brittany was pretty much notional and the facts on the ground were rule from Paris, or did that not happen until later?
 

Susano

Banned
I thought by the 15th century the position of Duke of Brittany was pretty much notional and the facts on the ground were rule from Paris, or did that not happen until later?
That in fact did not happen until later. Britanny was absorbed into the Crown Domain by that very marriage. French centralism rose from the Crown Domain ever increasing and eventually encompassing all of France except the appanages, but in the 15th century there still were rather big territories that were not part of the Crown Domain. Charles V. even allied with one French feudal lord against France... though that was an appanagae (it were the early Bourbons, IIRC)...
 

Thande

Donor
That in fact did not happen until later. Britanny was absorbed into the Crown Domain by that very marriage. French centralism rose from the Crown Domain ever increasing and eventually encompassing all of France except the appanages, but in the 15th century there still were rather big territories that were not part of the Crown Domain. Charles V. even allied with one French feudal lord against France... though that was an appanagae (it were the early Bourbons, IIRC)...

Ahh, thankee.
 

Raymann

Banned
I'm pretty sure it was by then.

Doesn't matter though, there is no way the English can hold on to it past the 15th century anyway, France was just too strong.

A POD would be needed that makes France significally weaker, the English much stronger, and have a willingness to invest a large amount of resources in defending their mainland possesions.
 
I'm pretty sure it was by then.

Doesn't matter though, there is no way the English can hold on to it past the 15th century anyway, France was just too strong.

A POD would be needed that makes France significally weaker, the English much stronger, and have a willingness to invest a large amount of resources in defending their mainland possesions.

It doesn't really matter if they hold on to it, as long as it makes a significant divergence from OTL.

I'm building up to something here, and I make no apologies for it: what are the chances of a French invasion of England around the turn of the sixteenth century, and what are the chances of it succeeding?
 

Susano

Banned
I'm building up to something here, and I make no apologies for it: what are the chances of a French invasion of England around the turn of the sixteenth century, and what are the chances of it succeeding?
...it seems this becomes a meme infestion...
 
...it seems this becomes a meme infestion...

It makes sense to have France invade at some point in history. England is a perpetual enemy, and at this time it's still technically in a civil war, it's not in the best of shape. This is probably the best chance France has to invade England and cripple the country "once and for all" [1]

[1] As in, "The War to End All Wars", or "The Final Solution". Final-sounding words do not necessarily reflect finalizing outcomes.
 

Susano

Banned
True, but its funny how it comes all at once :D

Heh. Britanny as a home for a royal court in exile - Englands this time? :D
 
True, but its funny how it comes all at once :D

Heh. Britanny as a home for a royal court in exile - Englands this time? :D

While this would be so awesome, I have to veto this - if France is powerful enough to invade England, Brittany won't survive long. But yes, I see the LTTW analogue. :D

Could we see the Lancastrians collaborate with the French to gain the throne?
 

Thande

Donor
The French did try and invade a few times in OTL, and did manage to land troops once or twice, it's just nothing came of it.

My favourite one was this attempt during the Hundred Years' War by the Duc de Berry, which seemed to have been organised by the mediaeval French version of NASA ;) - ridiculously over-the-top, massive floating city-rafts capable of holding thousands of troops, and supplied with rations and something like 50,000 barrels of wine (because THIS IS FRAAAANCE!) - ended up being delayed countless times and then being destroyed by a storm or something.

More or less the opposite of Sealion, overthinking it...
 

Susano

Banned
While this would be so awesome, I have to veto this - if France is powerful enough to invade England, Brittany won't survive long. But yes, I see the LTTW analogue. :D

Could we see the Lancastrians collaborate with the French to gain the throne?
Well, if France ridicously much concentrtaes on England, correctly assuming Britanny is no threat, leaving it aside for the moment, and in the meanwhile Spain or so intervenes...

My favourite one was this attempt during the Hundred Years' War by the Duc de Berry, which seemed to have been organised by the mediaeval French version of NASA ;) - ridiculously over-the-top, massive floating city-rafts capable of holding thousands of troops, and supplied with rations and something like 50,000 barrels of wine (because THIS IS FRAAAANCE!) - ended up being delayed countless times and then being destroyed by a storm or something.

More or less the opposite of Sealion, overthinking it...
Seems to me it was ratehr the storm doing it ;)
Goddamn, Britain seems to have as much good luck with that as the Japanese. And RISPN exists why, exactly? Youre about the same anyways :p
 
Seems to me it was ratehr the storm doing it ;)
Goddamn, Britain seems to have as much good luck with that as the Japanese. And RISPN exists why, exactly? Youre about the same anyways :p

A densely populated archipelago, constitutional monarchy, famed for its reserve, and obsessed with tea and gardening. Whereas Britain...


Anyway, I might draw up a map for this - I have a good one from the right time period - and then I might even get timelining. Again. :rolleyes::D
 

Thande

Donor
And RISPN exists why, exactly? Youre about the same anyways :p

Because we don't get worshipped by 13 yr olds the world over for oppressing the Irish and putting iron bars through women's heads or whatever the appropriate analogy is ;)

Besides, what's it Pratchett said about hate being an attractive force just like love? The England-France vendetta is, at heart, because both countries are very similar in some ways, but act on those core impulses in very different ways. Compare it to England-Germany rivalry, which has always seemed a bit of a damp squib by comparison: cultural differences too much.
 

Susano

Banned
Because we don't get worshipped by 13 yr olds the world over for oppressing the Irish and putting iron bars through women's heads or whatever the appropriate analogy is ;)
Eh, let me tell you, being worshipped by strange teenies is not so great, akshually. Well, fo coruse, in our case it are mostly (often maladjisted) boys, and in Japan cases girls, that could be a difference...
 
I'm pretty sure it was by then.

Doesn't matter though, there is no way the English can hold on to it past the 15th century anyway, France was just too strong.

A POD would be needed that makes France significally weaker, the English much stronger, and have a willingness to invest a large amount of resources in defending their mainland possesions.

France was pretty weak in that period.
Its more that England was weaker.

But if the king can get parliament to give him some money and friendly Spain is around...
 
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