England stays Catholic-effects?

So, lets say Henry and Catherine have a son and remain happily married. Henry remains the "Defender of the [Catholic] Faith" and feels no need to split from Rome.

What broader effects does this have on Europe? I presume England would probably maintain its alliance with Spain against France-does the Dutch rebellion fail without English support? What does the alliance system of 16thC Europe going into the Thirty Years War look like.

Also, what might internal English politics look like? Would the Calvinists be strong enough to make England go through a "War of Relgion" like France? What might the effects of a large, powerful, landowning church be on English political culture? Would it become less "English" and more "French" or "Latin American"? Thoughts?
 
England will eventually find a reason to abandon Spain. The English natural aversion to anyone having hegemony over Europe is too strong for religion to overcome. on the matter of the calvinists, maybe if England still acquires Scotland then history has a Scotland screw instead of an Ireland screw (screwed over religion. no matter what complaints people in scotland have, it's nothing compared to what Oliver Cromwell did in Ireland. That was pretty much genoicide and ethnic cleansing)
 
Suppose that is your POD (with Catherine bearing Henry VIII a son), England can remain Catholic.

If the Habsburgs are as powerful as OTL then in time England will draw away from them and, as unlikely as it sounds, side with France.
 
Suppose that is your POD (with Catherine bearing Henry VIII a son), England can remain Catholic.

If the Habsburgs are as powerful as OTL then in time England will draw away from them and, as unlikely as it sounds, side with France.

I'm pretty sure they did ally with France. Just because they remain Catholic doesn't mean they'll be allies with England. Henry VIII seemed like the kind of chap who at one moment was begging to increase ties between England and Spain and the other, was making secret deals with Francois I.
 
I'm pretty sure they did ally with France. Just because they remain Catholic doesn't mean they'll be allies with England. Henry VIII seemed like the kind of chap who at one moment was begging to increase ties between England and Spain and the other, was making secret deals with Francois I.

Funny thing, since Henry and Francois were brotherly rivals...
 
SavoyTruffle said:
Funny thing, since Henry and Francois were brotherly rivals...

Not as much as Charles V and François Ier. Throughout his reign, Henry VIII had a tendency to balance between the two, as if he was counting the points while the two others were fighting...

Sure he probably had more to chew against François Ier than Charles V, but I think Henry VIII was kind of a pragmatist in regards to his foreign policy.
 
I think the most interesting part of staying Catholic would be the effect on the Empire. Without religious reasons for competing with first the Spainish then the French would England have the drive for empire it did.

With regards to Scotland, unless England invaded I can see Scotland surviving as an independant nation with no Stuarts taking the throne in London.
 
I wonder if something in the middle is possible...

Perhaps a split resulting in an Anglicized Catholocism would be more interesting. Still loyal to the Pope but still in colonial competition with Spain?

Perhaps the Vatican rejects Anglican Catholocism but their continued loyalty to the Pope in spite of their competition with other Empires eventually leads to the Vatican accepting them as a Catholic denomination under the umbrella of the Pope.

That seems hard to pull off but... frankly... so does Anglicanism. And if they remain independently loyal to the Church, I can see it becoming apparent that readmitting the "prodigal son" of England would serve to the Church's benefit.

Just a thought.
 
Not as much as Charles V and François Ier. Throughout his reign, Henry VIII had a tendency to balance between the two, as if he was counting the points while the two others were fighting...

Sure he probably had more to chew against François Ier than Charles V, but I think Henry VIII was kind of a pragmatist in regards to his foreign policy.

Or he wasn't engrossed in European politics as much as girl-chasing? ;)

I think the most interesting part of staying Catholic would be the effect on the Empire. Without religious reasons for competing with first the Spainish then the French would England have the drive for empire it did.

With regards to Scotland, unless England invaded I can see Scotland surviving as an independant nation with no Stuarts taking the throne in London.

The drive for an English empire will be as driven as the French desire; both wish the riches of the New World as badly as Spain controls it.

I wonder if something in the middle is possible...

Perhaps a split resulting in an Anglicized Catholocism would be more interesting. Still loyal to the Pope but still in colonial competition with Spain?

Perhaps the Vatican rejects Anglican Catholocism but their continued loyalty to the Pope in spite of their competition with other Empires eventually leads to the Vatican accepting them as a Catholic denomination under the umbrella of the Pope.

That seems hard to pull off but... frankly... so does Anglicanism. And if they remain independently loyal to the Church, I can see it becoming apparent that readmitting the "prodigal son" of England would serve to the Church's benefit.

Just a thought.

Or they could get a settlement a la the Gallicanism of OTL, where in exchange for England recognizing the Pope as its spiritual overlord, the crown gains some power with regards to the church hierarchy?
 
The Irish likely remain loyal, and likely end up within a United Kingdom analogue. Henry's heirs will also still want Scotland.
 
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