England retains Brittany instead of Gascony

I am thinking, is it possible for England just to retain Brittany instead of Gascony, I know it requires for Arthur to succeed, what would happen to England in the long run.
 
I am thinking, is it possible for England just to retain Brittany instead of Gascony, I know it requires for Arthur to succeed, what would happen to England in the long run.

Arthur being adult when Richard dies, in other words Richard living longer. There is as chance of incorporating Brittany into the Kingdom of England as it was not a part of the Kingdom of France at this time. And if Arthur comes into all of Plantagenet lands including England, he would be in a much stronger position then John was.
 
I am thinking, is it possible for England just to retain Brittany instead of Gascony, I know it requires for Arthur to succeed, what would happen to England in the long run.

Why not both? If John dies around, say, 1202, and Eleanor of Aquitaine dies around or before 1204, Arthur will be the only male line Plantagenet, and thus the only male heir of Eleanor, left.
 
Why not both? If John dies around, say, 1202, and Eleanor of Aquitaine dies around or before 1204, Arthur will be the only male line Plantagenet, and thus the only male heir of Eleanor, left.

She has other heirs, her initial heir to Aquitaine was Otto of Brunswick who is her grandson via her daughter Matilda...Theobald of Champagne or Louis of Blois are the other possible heirs to Aquitaine aside from Arthur, I think Philippe Auguste might push the candidacy of the Infant Theobald as the Duke of Aquitaine instead.
 
Last edited:
She has other heirs, her initial heir to Aquitaine was Otto of Brunswick who is her grandson via her daughter Matilda...Theobald of Champagne or Louis of Blois are the other possible heirs to Aquitaine aside from Arthur, I think Philippe Auguste might push the candidacy of the Infant Theobald as the Duke of Aquitaine instead.

By tradition Arthur would of been the heir, and if he was an adult he would of been in a good position. I believe Gascony was periodically part of France, therefore it would of been harder to separate... Remember the Duchies of Aquitaine and Gascony were separate, one was always part of France the other sometimes independent, so they might of ended up in different hands. Philippe was more likely to support one of his half nieces who he could control.

Infant Theobald do you mean Theobald I of Navarre right? I find that unlikely it would unite Gascony with a foreign Kingdom that has a culture closer to them then France.
 
Last edited:
By tradition Arthur would of been the heir, and if he was an adult he would of been in a good position. I believe Gascony was periodically part of France, therefore it would of been harder to separate... Remember the Duchies of Aquitaine and Gascony were separate, one was always part of France the other sometimes independent, so they might of ended up in different hands. Philippe was more likely to support one of his half nieces who he could control.

Infant Theobald do you mean Theobald I of Navarre right? I find that unlikely it would unite Gascony with a foreign Kingdom that has a culture closer to them then France.

His Half Neices would be the Jerusalem Daughters of Henry of Champagne, they had a problem with Theobald I of Navarre's father, Aquitaine and Gascony would be divided between them.
 
Last edited:
I believe Gascony was periodically part of France, therefore it would of been harder to separate... Remember the Duchies of Aquitaine and Gascony were separate, one was always part of France the other sometimes independent, so they might of ended up in different hands.

When are you thinking of one or the other of them as being independent from France? I know of two periods where that could be argued: much earlier than the Angevin timeframe (the Frankish Kingdom of Aquitaine, comprising most of the southern half of modern France, which was a separate crown from Neustria that repeatedly went in and out of personal union with it until eventually (~900 AD, I think) the union came to be viewed as a single inseparable kingdom (West Francia, later France) and the former Aquitaine lands were parceled out as duchies and counties owning homage to the single crown; and much later, during one of the truce periods in the Hundred Years War when France briefly yielded a big chunk of territory centered on Gascony to Edward III of England as an independent lordship for which he would not need to give homage to the French crown.

My understanding is that during the Angevin period and for some time leading up to it, Aquitaine and Gascony were both legally vassals of the French crown (the two duchies being in personal union with each other and sometimes with the English crown as well), but powerful enough relative to the Kings of France and distant enough from Paris that royal authority was mostly nominal. Not that the legal vassalage was insignificant: it gave Philip Augustus moral authority to intervene in quarrels within the Angevin dynasty, and in disputes between the dukes and their vassals within de jure France.
 
I remember when I was researching a tl about a possible Occitan nation that during the middle ages Gascony didn't always owe fealty to france. I do not remember the specific time period... And sorry do not feel like looking it up again right now. I found several referencing their allegiance and one or two references too them not owing fealty at a specific time during Plantagenet empire, maybe they were wrong, but they were good enough that I believed them at the time.


His Half Neices would be the Jerusalem Daughters of Henry of Champagne, they had a problem with Theobald I of Navarre's father, Aquitaine and Gascony would be divided between them.
The French king was not powerful enough to casually steal fiefs away from the lawful adult male heir, but he might of been down for trading some kind of Recognition of Arthur as Lord of Brittany for some of his fiefs, he offered something similar to John.
 
Last edited:
I remember when I was researching a tl about a possible Occitan nation that during the middle ages Gascony didn't always owe fealty to france. I do not remember the specific time period... And sorry do not feel like looking it up again right now. I found several referencing their allegiance and one or two references too them not owing fealty at a specific time during Plantagenet empire, maybe they were wrong, but they were good enough that I believed them at the time.



The French king was not powerful enough to casually steal fiefs away from the lawful adult male heir, but he might of been down for trading some kind of Recognition of Arthur as Lord of Brittany for some of his fiefs, he offered something similar to John.

Eleanor of Aquitaine's chosen heir was Otto IV, the Holy Roman Emperor, since Eleanor is still alive in the ITTL death of John, she might assign another heir with Philip's recognition.
 
Last edited:
Top