England Expects More....
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- jellicoe wwi wwi at sea
Fully agree - my comment was just for fun, given the obvious link between music and acoustics noted by Salamander. I'm well aware that often easy-to-see technological 'solutions' can mask the more effective but less visible change-in-procedures solutions.
Maybe instead Bothy will help steer the team towards an awareness that disparate groups can have a result which is more than the sum of their parts (different instruments in an orchestra >>> different ships all working together >>> convoys etc) when coordinated properly (the conductor >>> combined RN/merchant navy planners).
Glyndwr01
Banned
It's because most attacks were surface attacks that they started the Q Ships.
Q-ship - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It's because most attacks were surface attacks that they started the Q Ships.
Q-ship - Wikipedia
True ... but again an indication of the flaws in the RN mindset
wasting resources trying to sink a few UBs when the proper aim was to prevent a host of sinkings
Glyndwr01
Banned
Not really it was put in place as a stop gap and as an answer to surface raiders as well, it was not expected to be the only answer. The unfortunate consequence was the Germans ignoring the Cruiser Rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruis...ing to,a type of ship rather than its mission.
I'm going to be very disappointed now if Bothy turns out not to have any great impact...
He might not, but his grand-kids will.
Hardly just a stop-gap!
Decoy ships were first deployed in early 1915, ie. a year before any significant short-range convoys
and more than two years before Atlantic protection.
Many decoys remained in use in that role for all the rest of the war (those not sunk in the process of course)
In total over 140 vessels were converted ... a huge effort, especially as some were smaller RN vessels with other uses
and those numbers do not include those submarines which were used as a hidden escort to a surface decoy!.
(BTW the first decoy ship victory in 1915 was by the escorting RN sub though the next was by the decoys own gun.)
The most famous decoys were, of course, the actual Q ships based in Queenstown Ireland
which were used mainly in the Atlantic approaches,
but smaller merchant vessels were armed for use in the North Sea etc.
Some were even sail-powered as were so many of the North Sea fishermen and channel merchantmen.
As you can see, not all of the decoys would have made reasonable
but 50+ escorts in coastal waters and 30+ escorts in the Atlantic starting in mid-1915 would have been significant
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I am so very very sympathetic to this post.
I am in Canada where we often have travelers from Europe who don't quite get the distances we deal with - especially in the west.
First thing I thought of (was rushing and forgot to add before) was this little story.
A dozen years ago we had temp neighbours from England - here on posting for two years. They tried to see as much of the country as they could - but sometimes struggled to plan. Once they came to us looking for maps (we have shelves and magazine boxes) in the hope we had one showing the highway from Yellowknife (NWT) to Whitehorse (Yukon) - their map (VERY large scale of the whole West) had none. Turned out none of ours showed any road there either (although there is one, at least now there is). So we asked about their plan. They were proposing to visit a lot of spruce trees.
Their idea was for a 2-week vacation, flying to Calgary (Alberta) then north to Edmonton (Alberta), to Yellowknife, over to Whitehorse, and down to Vancouver (BC) to spend a few days there, and then back to Calgary via the mountain national parks, particularly Banff and Jasper. A whole 2 weeks. We were too shocked to guffaw too openly. When we recovered we got them straightened out: they were proposing what looked like 8,000 km (better maps show more like 7300 today). It would have meant an average of 6 hours at the wheel every single day - not much time for seeing anything but a blur of rocks and trees (of which we have much inventory). It might be a lovely drive - if you have the time.
They did decide to dial it back a bit.
Banff and Jasper, and Vancouver, were great.==
And I will have another post in a few hours.
England Expects More.... CH 3-3
CHAPTER 3 Part 3: England Expects More....
THREE
“Now to the main business of the morning: where are we with the grand table? It's CPO Davies' domain, so I asked him to fill us in. Davies?”
“Sir!”
Davies, who had been standing back, stepped to the centre and came briefly to attention before he spoke: “Sirs. Overall construction is almost done. It was all pretty basic really. There are a few issues to address today, and then the lads and the civilian carpenters will work the rest of the day and tonight to have it ready as soon as tomorrow morning.
“Sirs, as we see it, I mean Jones, MacPherson, and Cooper, and I see it, this is for you to study submarine attacks, whatever that takes, not to play scenarios of commanding officers through handling enemy confrontations at sea, like we did with the Grand Fleet.
“And so, sirs, from previous experience with the Fleet Action Control Tables at Scapa we have various markers for weather and visibility conditions, and can fit out to vary lighting as required, and can probably put other things together as we see the need. But, sirs, you see, what we really need is to determine three things:
“Well done, Davies. So there we have the rest of the job for now: what do we need to study and how? I have to chase some administrative matters, and then go up to London to the Admiralty. So Barky and Imrie I would like you two, as experienced operators, to review this with Davies and the crew. Those matters have to be settled today.”
Smithy looked around. “Walke and Robinson, do you have anything critical lined up?”
At this, Walke looked up from a piece of paper he was spindling in his hands. “I have nothing, sir. I just have the odd feeling that we are missing some basic element – so I was hoping to have some time to review the summary notes we have on the entire U-boat war so far, just so I can know a bit more to talk with Barky about submarines and how they work.”
“Very well. Robinson: please sit in with Barky and Imrie as much as you can. Consider what Leonard just said, and listen – put the story together just like preparing a brief where you don't have all the pieces.”
“Aye, sir. Most court cases are like that. else you wouldn't have to go to court.”
“Leonard, you do just as you propose – and then meet with Barky later today, or tonight if needed. Imrie will be going over to the dockyard, so he might not be around from noon until tea time. I'll be going with him if I am available.
“And Barky – be on the lookout for something like he said – something we are all overlooking. When we finally see it, that may very well be the key.”
THREE
“Now to the main business of the morning: where are we with the grand table? It's CPO Davies' domain, so I asked him to fill us in. Davies?”
“Sir!”
Davies, who had been standing back, stepped to the centre and came briefly to attention before he spoke: “Sirs. Overall construction is almost done. It was all pretty basic really. There are a few issues to address today, and then the lads and the civilian carpenters will work the rest of the day and tonight to have it ready as soon as tomorrow morning.
“Sirs, as we see it, I mean Jones, MacPherson, and Cooper, and I see it, this is for you to study submarine attacks, whatever that takes, not to play scenarios of commanding officers through handling enemy confrontations at sea, like we did with the Grand Fleet.
“And so, sirs, from previous experience with the Fleet Action Control Tables at Scapa we have various markers for weather and visibility conditions, and can fit out to vary lighting as required, and can probably put other things together as we see the need. But, sirs, you see, what we really need is to determine three things:
- First, what will the table actually represent? What will be seen? Is it from the bridge of a ship, or of a U-boat? From an aeroplane flying high above? Once we decide, we can finish the main construction.
- Second, what will the scale be? Similar to the viewpoint, will this cover many miles and potentially many ships, or just the range of visibility from a single ship? We think we have an answer, but it needs to be confirmed. This will determine what kinds of markers or other bits and bobs we need.
- Third, are communications an issue? We have not done extensive work on this because unlike FACT at Scapa communications are not a concern – at least not yet, or so far as we have been told. So we figure that we can go forward without, and have signaling be added later if needed.
“Well done, Davies. So there we have the rest of the job for now: what do we need to study and how? I have to chase some administrative matters, and then go up to London to the Admiralty. So Barky and Imrie I would like you two, as experienced operators, to review this with Davies and the crew. Those matters have to be settled today.”
Smithy looked around. “Walke and Robinson, do you have anything critical lined up?”
At this, Walke looked up from a piece of paper he was spindling in his hands. “I have nothing, sir. I just have the odd feeling that we are missing some basic element – so I was hoping to have some time to review the summary notes we have on the entire U-boat war so far, just so I can know a bit more to talk with Barky about submarines and how they work.”
“Very well. Robinson: please sit in with Barky and Imrie as much as you can. Consider what Leonard just said, and listen – put the story together just like preparing a brief where you don't have all the pieces.”
“Aye, sir. Most court cases are like that. else you wouldn't have to go to court.”
“Leonard, you do just as you propose – and then meet with Barky later today, or tonight if needed. Imrie will be going over to the dockyard, so he might not be around from noon until tea time. I'll be going with him if I am available.
“And Barky – be on the lookout for something like he said – something we are all overlooking. When we finally see it, that may very well be the key.”
That vital something they're all overlooking wouldn't be 'safety in numbers' would it? I wonder if there are any naturalists amongst the various reservists, who might know something about the protection a herd offers against predators? Surely then there could be an intuitive leap to convoys?
They are marine-oriented, so they think of a flock of ducks. They just don't know if the ducks are sitting still or flying and protected by hawks.
Seriously - if it were so obvious in 1916, they would have done it. These guys have to work through possibilities and they have to look where they think the answers might be before they look...at what they don't know to look at...?
But you are right that the reservists are not wearing the Victorian "Certified Obedient Servant Mk.I. RN Blinkers" which were the root of so many WWI RN problems.* The intersection of these worlds may very well bring some 'fun' along the way.
*As shown in England Expects.
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England Expects More.... CH 3-4
Sorry folks. Desktop machine took itself off the internet for a few days.
Doggone thing is too smart for me! Can I borrow a large mallet from someone?
==
CHAPTER 3 Part 4: England Expects More....
FOUR
Commander Torrance Smythe led the way to the main hall where the big table was being constructed. Lieutenant Commanders Imrie and Barker were with him while Lieutenant Robinson took a short detour to pick up a foolscap pad for his notes. CPO Davies used that time to send their few civilian carpenters for a tea break.
They stood looking at the chaos of construction, with the main outline of the table and its access hatches clear, while on one side the plaster dust showed where a wall had been removed. When Robinson caught up with them, Smithy spoke: “I will leave you to sorting this – but my thought is to keep it simple and adaptable for now. We will know more later – we hope – and adjust from there. Good luck. Davies: it's your show.” With that, he turned and left.
“Thank you, sir.” Davies spoke to the officers with confidence. “Sirs, here is our layout as most of you have seen when you've been peeking in at us, and the sketches we have circulated. The only remaining issue is as I said: what is the point of view and the scale. I will ask PO Cooper to speak about the first of those. Cooper?”
Somewhat less at ease than Davies at speaking up to the officers, Cooper was nevertheless quite ready. “Sirs, I watched many sessions at FACT in Scapa, and 'ave been thinking about this 'ere table. And I think that we are trying too 'ard, if I can put it that way. What we call the scale of the table, like a chart, is just the rule we chalk out along the side. I think that we can vary the scale anytime, once we decide the viewpoint. On a flat open ocean table, we change scale just by drawing a different scale along the side for quick reference – and using a different size circle to show visibility – in fact we are thinking of rings, like wooden 'oops – around a ship.” He paused to concentrate on what he said. “Large scale – small h-oop to show what an individual ship can see. Small scale – large h-oop to show what it can see. Night – smaller circle of visibility, and so on like that. Sirs.”
Heads were nodding as he spoke. Wilson Imrie was first to speak: “Yes. And each type of ship can see differently, or if they have a higher crows nest, or whatever. Very good, Cooper. A range of hoop sizes and we can show what visibility we want.”
Robinson followed with a smile: “Yes. Keeping it simple is what works. Barky?”
Barker was nodding. “Agreed. Thinking too hard about it would bring more problems.”
Davies spoke up: “Very good, sirs. We'll build for the accessories and not the table to adapt to scale. Now about the point of view, CPO Jones has been considering what this means.”
Jones was more confident. “Sirs, like Cooper, I think we want to keep it simple – at least until we know something specific that we want to build. We can't hold up while waiting to figure it out. So that leaves us markers for visibility, like smoke and fog and squalls, and model ships. Nothing really new there except a few sets of ships built as single blocks so as to be easy to show as flotillas or squadrons. The only truly new idea we have is to build a little table in a little room with a hole and a stool in the middle – the captain sitting in there would have his head at table-top level. If you think that might be useful, we can start work on it.”
Imrie, showing clearly that he had been in the anti-submarine contest for a large part of the war, spoke first: “Yes. We have to keep moving. But, that last idea will help us see the submarine side of the games.”
Barker nodded silently as Robinson added: “Yes. Go on, and with that little table with the stool. Time is of the essence. As with all we are doing it is as Voltaire said: The perfect is the enemy of the good.”
Davies was a bit taken aback at this ready agreement to their proposals. “Sirs. Is there.... We can proceed with this as proposed, but, is there anything else?”
The barrister Robinson was quick to continue, as he glanced at the other two officers. “I don't think so. Not if we are to keep moving forward. Just over two months ago we bashed their battle fleet, and about a month ago they launched a whirlwind from beneath the sea that is causing untold damage to our ability to make war. We have to keep moving forward.”
“Very good, sirs. Thank you. And if I follow on from your comments on those points, and what Commander Torrance Smythe said about keeping it simple, we won't worry about the communications and lighting until we need to. We will build in a few small elements to make later fittings easier, but that won't delay having this operational by tomorrow morning. Well, maybe noon if the paint is slow to dry.”
Imrie spoke for the officers: “Thank you all. Now we just have to figure out what it is we need figure out!”
As they walked along the corridor to their collective working office, Robinson paused. Imrie and Barker came to a stop and looked at him questions clear on their faces. “I can't see what we need to do in there that you guys have not already worked out at sea. I'm a lawyer, not a seagoing officer. I don't hold a watch-keeping certificate, What can that give us?”
Barker answered quickly: “I'm not sure what it will be, but it will let us test out a lot of things in short order. Going to sea to test tactical theories is a slow business. I know with submarines we go out for a day and get two trial runs, sometimes only one of them realistic.”
“I think that's it,” added Imrie. “There might be something else, but it will let us think and work quickly, while conferring together, to figure out what works.”
“It damn well better,” Robinson added as he started walking again.
Doggone thing is too smart for me! Can I borrow a large mallet from someone?
==
CHAPTER 3 Part 4: England Expects More....
FOUR
Commander Torrance Smythe led the way to the main hall where the big table was being constructed. Lieutenant Commanders Imrie and Barker were with him while Lieutenant Robinson took a short detour to pick up a foolscap pad for his notes. CPO Davies used that time to send their few civilian carpenters for a tea break.
They stood looking at the chaos of construction, with the main outline of the table and its access hatches clear, while on one side the plaster dust showed where a wall had been removed. When Robinson caught up with them, Smithy spoke: “I will leave you to sorting this – but my thought is to keep it simple and adaptable for now. We will know more later – we hope – and adjust from there. Good luck. Davies: it's your show.” With that, he turned and left.
“Thank you, sir.” Davies spoke to the officers with confidence. “Sirs, here is our layout as most of you have seen when you've been peeking in at us, and the sketches we have circulated. The only remaining issue is as I said: what is the point of view and the scale. I will ask PO Cooper to speak about the first of those. Cooper?”
Somewhat less at ease than Davies at speaking up to the officers, Cooper was nevertheless quite ready. “Sirs, I watched many sessions at FACT in Scapa, and 'ave been thinking about this 'ere table. And I think that we are trying too 'ard, if I can put it that way. What we call the scale of the table, like a chart, is just the rule we chalk out along the side. I think that we can vary the scale anytime, once we decide the viewpoint. On a flat open ocean table, we change scale just by drawing a different scale along the side for quick reference – and using a different size circle to show visibility – in fact we are thinking of rings, like wooden 'oops – around a ship.” He paused to concentrate on what he said. “Large scale – small h-oop to show what an individual ship can see. Small scale – large h-oop to show what it can see. Night – smaller circle of visibility, and so on like that. Sirs.”
Heads were nodding as he spoke. Wilson Imrie was first to speak: “Yes. And each type of ship can see differently, or if they have a higher crows nest, or whatever. Very good, Cooper. A range of hoop sizes and we can show what visibility we want.”
Robinson followed with a smile: “Yes. Keeping it simple is what works. Barky?”
Barker was nodding. “Agreed. Thinking too hard about it would bring more problems.”
Davies spoke up: “Very good, sirs. We'll build for the accessories and not the table to adapt to scale. Now about the point of view, CPO Jones has been considering what this means.”
Jones was more confident. “Sirs, like Cooper, I think we want to keep it simple – at least until we know something specific that we want to build. We can't hold up while waiting to figure it out. So that leaves us markers for visibility, like smoke and fog and squalls, and model ships. Nothing really new there except a few sets of ships built as single blocks so as to be easy to show as flotillas or squadrons. The only truly new idea we have is to build a little table in a little room with a hole and a stool in the middle – the captain sitting in there would have his head at table-top level. If you think that might be useful, we can start work on it.”
Imrie, showing clearly that he had been in the anti-submarine contest for a large part of the war, spoke first: “Yes. We have to keep moving. But, that last idea will help us see the submarine side of the games.”
Barker nodded silently as Robinson added: “Yes. Go on, and with that little table with the stool. Time is of the essence. As with all we are doing it is as Voltaire said: The perfect is the enemy of the good.”
Davies was a bit taken aback at this ready agreement to their proposals. “Sirs. Is there.... We can proceed with this as proposed, but, is there anything else?”
The barrister Robinson was quick to continue, as he glanced at the other two officers. “I don't think so. Not if we are to keep moving forward. Just over two months ago we bashed their battle fleet, and about a month ago they launched a whirlwind from beneath the sea that is causing untold damage to our ability to make war. We have to keep moving forward.”
“Very good, sirs. Thank you. And if I follow on from your comments on those points, and what Commander Torrance Smythe said about keeping it simple, we won't worry about the communications and lighting until we need to. We will build in a few small elements to make later fittings easier, but that won't delay having this operational by tomorrow morning. Well, maybe noon if the paint is slow to dry.”
Imrie spoke for the officers: “Thank you all. Now we just have to figure out what it is we need figure out!”
As they walked along the corridor to their collective working office, Robinson paused. Imrie and Barker came to a stop and looked at him questions clear on their faces. “I can't see what we need to do in there that you guys have not already worked out at sea. I'm a lawyer, not a seagoing officer. I don't hold a watch-keeping certificate, What can that give us?”
Barker answered quickly: “I'm not sure what it will be, but it will let us test out a lot of things in short order. Going to sea to test tactical theories is a slow business. I know with submarines we go out for a day and get two trial runs, sometimes only one of them realistic.”
“I think that's it,” added Imrie. “There might be something else, but it will let us think and work quickly, while conferring together, to figure out what works.”
“It damn well better,” Robinson added as he started walking again.
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I am a bit worried the table is jumping ahead somewhat, the problem is not so much tactical problems of how best to hunt a submarine or defend a convoy. The issue is having a convoy or not.
But then if they do enough rapid table-top exercises they might demonstrate convoys really obstruct submarine's efforts to attack, so perhaps that 'evidence' will see convoys adopted.
But then if they do enough rapid table-top exercises they might demonstrate convoys really obstruct submarine's efforts to attack, so perhaps that 'evidence' will see convoys adopted.
I'm not too worried; the table is what they know and they know it provides a lot of value, so they're going to with a table. If anything they are extremely adaptive in changing the fundamental scale of the table problem. In the morning it can be 30 mile long stretch of the channel. In the afternoon, it can be the entire Western approaches. That is extreme flexibility, and the fundamental insight that a U-boat is only dangerous to a ship it can detect will become readily apparent.
The idea of the hoops is a good one. That is something that they would all be familiar with to show range of all types. A plus idea would be to have a string compass to be able to make an arc on the table from a ship or sub to show a limited view like from a periscope or between clouds of smoke.
By having different coloured hoops for different things, gun range, visual range etc, means lots more information can be shown on the table.
AIUI even simpler than that iOTL
The RN already knew that any protection reduced losses to shipping by a huge amount,
they simply completely miscounted how many vessels needed protecting in mid-ocean
(and to a degree how many vessels were needed to provide effective protection
though I suppose the "tables" might help with that )
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Thanks for the discussion. some points will be answered in the next few posts, covering the next day or two of elapsed time. (They are under pressure. ) Moore and Smithy are to meet with 1SL and First Lord, so presumably some flesh could be added to their instructions.
Do remember that the RN is fundamentally looking for a way to defeat U-boats, and that is what our heroes are looking for. I don't know where convoys fit in the (unwritten? verbally expanded?) version of their instructions.
We all need to remember two things.
First, we have hindsight and some things are so clear that we think it had to be bloody obvious to them.
Second, "It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so."
Yes. They are trying to move forward where they can and how they can. Even if the wrong directions, they will learn more than if they stand still, and adjust their course. They will try out many scenarios before having to take the best onto salt water for testing.
Moore said it: these guys were all (except for the new RNVRs) picked for a reason. They are thinkers who look to the ends, not the KR&AI. And, yes, maybe a CO or two wanted to get them and their questions out of his hair!
I was going to say that I plan to post about every 3rd day (I have some figured ahead, at last) but for sure if I actually say that then a rampaging elephant will kick his way through the snow and up the steps to my house.... //VP
Do remember that the RN is fundamentally looking for a way to defeat U-boats, and that is what our heroes are looking for. I don't know where convoys fit in the (unwritten? verbally expanded?) version of their instructions.
We all need to remember two things.
First, we have hindsight and some things are so clear that we think it had to be bloody obvious to them.
Second, "It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so."
Indeed Fester has this the way I have been seeing it - the table methodology (which is what they have, other than drawing on charts or actually going to sea) will let them work things out much faster, and while remaining together to discuss rapidly. And that also means that things with limited utility will be dropped quickly.
Yes. They are trying to move forward where they can and how they can. Even if the wrong directions, they will learn more than if they stand still, and adjust their course. They will try out many scenarios before having to take the best onto salt water for testing.
Moore said it: these guys were all (except for the new RNVRs) picked for a reason. They are thinkers who look to the ends, not the KR&AI. And, yes, maybe a CO or two wanted to get them and their questions out of his hair!
I was going to say that I plan to post about every 3rd day (I have some figured ahead, at last) but for sure if I actually say that then a rampaging elephant will kick his way through the snow and up the steps to my house.... //VP
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