End ww2 with a surviving reich

What do you need to happen during the war in order for the third reich to survive after the defeat in ww2 ,a defeated germany still keep the nazi regime and the swastika ,i'd like to hear some interesting PODs
 
Perhaps a very limited start of the war, with Poland resisting very well the German incursion but getting creamed by a surprise Soviet attack. Then Stalin gets Baltic states as in OTL and decisively defeats Finland.

This way Poland is in Soviet hands. the Phony War does not escalate before a ceasefire is requested by Germany, and everyone is now afraid of the mighty USSR.
 
it wouldn't be called "WW2". The only way I can see Nazi Germany surviving is after a quick limited war with its neighbors. Perhaps a failed invasion of France followed very quickly by a coup against Hitler and peace may be your best bet.
 
Wiking's POD. Germany accepts USSR into Axis after defeating France. Soon enough Britain is forced out of the war, the USA focuses on Japan, and what we have is a tri-polar cold war. Being that the Germans did have a market economy they will outlast the Soviets, though the USSR may last longer than OTL simply because it avoids the destruction of WW2 and gets concessions in Eastern Europe and central Asia, including Iran, on the cheap. Just like Communist China, there is a chance at moderate reforms while the Nazi Party retains political power. Honestly, the holocaust as we know it might actually never occur, as the decision was made to mass exterminate the Jews when the US entered the war and there was no hope of expelling the Jews as per original plans. So, there's the outside chance we still have the Swastika and Hammer and Sickle today, and the Swastika would not carry the same connotations. Further, both powers, though not quite at the level of the USA (unless the US blunders badly), would still easily be the second and third top military powers today, with China closing in as a close fourth.
 
A couple of options.

1) Somehow you get a Halifax government and when he reaches out to Hitler the later is very rational. Its very clear that Halifax wanted to see what type of deal might be made as he tried just this behind Churchill's back. If Hitler offers anything like a white peace with the UK it might fly or might not.

2) No battle of Britain as soon as UK rejects Hitler's rambling peace go all in on an Med option. Bully, threaten or whatever is needed to get Italy on board. Move two luftwaffe fleets to Med, blitz Malta late July when it has in essence no defenses. Do a deal with Vichy France as the latter was looking around for something after UK attack on the French fleet. Get whatever mechanized troops you can into Libya and try to blitz Egypt the logistics suck BUT again its an empty shell. It doesn't matter if German logistics suck if they are only facing a single UK Corps there.

Hope and pray that the fall of Malta and Egypt causes Churchill's government to fall as otherwise trying to do a campaign in Middle East would be a total nightmare even with the British on the run.

There are various other random ideas I have but I but they require un-Hitler moves or blind luck.

A) Sit on defense and every 6 months ask for an armistice and dare the UK to invade in meantime. No Barbarossa, when / if Japan attacks USA reach out to US saying Germany doesn't want war. Demobilize some troops and focus on trying to fix the production mess.

B) Stalin attacks Hitler first after German delay in 1941. So Soviets invade in July for example. This plays to all German strengths as they would be fighting inside of their logistics network and short range so luftwaffe could range at will. I would expect soviets attacks to collapse in short order and the Germans counter punch at once.

C) After fall of France offer a reasonable and specific deal to UK.
a) Poland is gone we won and this is our prize
b) A-L, Luxemburg, some other minor border adjustments with France, and reverse of territory losses vs Belgium and Denmark from WW1.
c) France and other western powers have militarizes gelded
d) France and other western powers get hit with god awful reparations
e) Madagascar or some other bit of Africa to dump a few million Jews.
f) UK no terms beyond peace.

I tend to think even Churchill would have trouble walking away from such a deal but I could be wrong. Yah Germany is overt the major power of Europe but France, Belgium and the rest aren't puppets and after fall of France things looked fairly hopeless but this requires Hitler to be rational and think long term.

Michael
 

jahenders

Banned
What do you need to happen during the war in order for the third reich to survive after the defeat in ww2 ,a defeated germany still keep the nazi regime and the swastika ,i'd like to hear some interesting PODs

For this to happen, you almost need one of two things:
1) WWII stillborn. Germany delays invading Poland, but Russia invades Poland anyway. Germany and Russia go at it in Poland, but UK/France don't get involved. This probably wouldn't be called WWII though.

2) Hitler dies at just the right time and Germany negotiates a peace. The best bet would probably be right after Germany seizes France, but before they attack Russia. At that point, Germany is at its relative strongest and could get the best deal. Hitler being gone is essential because any subsequent leader can sort of imply that all the bad things were his fault. However, in a reich surviving under these circumstances the Nazi party would be weakened.
 
1) USSR invades Poland on 1939, Germany joins them two weeks later.

2) Germany invades Norway, Soviet Union conquer Baltic States, Finland and take Besarabia from Romania. Fall Gelb is postponed on month later due to fear before Soviet Red Army - Germans wants to observe Soviets to make sure that Soviets don't attack.

3) British bombers attack Baku oil refinery.

4) Germans sued for peace - status quo in West, "independent" governments in Norway under Quisling and in Denmark, Second anti-Comintern pact.

5) Japan attacks Pearl Harbor in 1941.

6) Stalin attacks Germany in late 1943. France and Great Britain sides with Germany.

7) Japan is defeated on 1944, USSR is defeated in 1946-48.
 
6) Stalin attacks Germany in late 1943. France and Great Britain sides with Germany.

Why would Stalin attack Germany if there is any indication the French and the British will join Germany? And on the other hand, if Stalin does attack, why would the French and the British join Germany if they were in a position to just safely watch by the sidelines when their two worst enemies fight and destroy each other?
 
more importantly,in which universe are the wallies going to accept a german victory peace like this? seriously,they get poland,denmark and norway (and keep austria and czechia),while france and britain simply concede defeat. after that,they side with the nazis who were highly disliked even before the holocaust thing came out (assuming they are somehow keeping it secret until 1943 without war conditions) against the SU which had quite some support in the western workers movement,not to speak of the generally good relations with france.

so yeah,highly unlikely.
 
Honestly, the holocaust as we know it might actually never occur, as the decision was made to mass exterminate the Jews when the US entered the war and there was no hope of expelling the Jews as per original plans./QUOTE]
I am sorry, but do you have any sources to support this claim? I was always that the whole plan to expel the Jews was just wishful thinking and exterminating them was the "real" plan all along. I don't see how US war entrance changed that.
 
Why would Stalin attack Germany if there is any indication the French and the British will join Germany? And on the other hand, if Stalin does attack, why would the French and the British join Germany if they were in a position to just safely watch by the sidelines when their two worst enemies fight and destroy each other?

Well for Britain it's "Balance of power!"

If Germany wins, as an active participant they have some degree of control over the post-war political landscape, but if they do nothing Germany gets to make some massive "Greater Germany" blob. On the other hand, if Russia wins, no matter what you've got communists staring down your French allies on the Rhine, if not you on the English Channel, I don't think I need to explain why that would be bad.

Probably still more likely you end up with some three way clusterfuck and the first atomic bombs are dropped on Moscow and Berlin.
 
Honestly, the holocaust as we know it might actually never occur, as the decision was made to mass exterminate the Jews when the US entered the war and there was no hope of expelling the Jews as per original plans./QUOTE]
I am sorry, but do you have any sources to support this claim? I was always that the whole plan to expel the Jews was just wishful thinking and exterminating them was the "real" plan all along. I don't see how US war entrance changed that.

Indeed, even if Germany followed through on their supposed Madagascar Plan, the Jews would end up as prisoners on the island.
 
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