Empty America without the Emptiness

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Strategos' Risk, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. Strategos' Risk Oriental Orientalist

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    What if the very extensive pre-Colombian colonization of the New World that happens in Doug Hoff's Empty America happens, except not in an ASB prehistoric New World, but in a regular Amerindian-populated New World?
     
  2. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

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    I suspect you wouldn't see such extensive colonization. On the east coast, anyway; Europe has plenty of furs and primitive peoples, thanks.

    The Pacific Coast, of course, is a different story.
     
  3. Strategos' Risk Oriental Orientalist

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    I think that Song China's colonization of EA was based on story-contrived butterflies unrelated to the whole prehistoric thing.
     
  4. Atom Future Human

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    It would be way more difficult. People tend to underestimate Natieve Americans. The difference between New England in the 1100 and 1400 wasn't huge 9more confederacies, some what higher population)versus the differences between Europe in 1100 and 1400. I would think that the Europeans would not be able to get such a big foothold, nor would they want to (much of the reason for colonizing the Americas in Empty America was due to the massive megafauna not present in OTL), and it would have a bigger benefit for the native americans.
     
  5. Dave Howery laughs at your pain

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    ...until the diseases got going... if the pre-Columbians bring over smallpox or any of the Old World plagues with them, the NAs are going to die off in massive numbers again. Of course, these pre-Columbians will only have bows and hand weapons, not guns, so they don't have all that much advantage over the NAs...
     
  6. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

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    If the Native Americans have cities and livestock, then they will have been exposing themselves to their own "native" diseases. The germ war will be a two-way street. While Eurasians would probably have more developed diseases and hardier immune systems, remember, the Natives don't have to win the disease wars one-for-one. All they need is to have their diseases kill off enough Eurasians to make it too dangerous for them to keep sending explorers.
     
  7. Strategos' Risk Oriental Orientalist

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    What diseases went from New World to Old World in OTL besides syphillis?

    Also, another note is that the POD for Ögedei Khan's death in EA is not really all that dependent on the "Emptiness", I think Doug Hoff wanted the Mongol invasion of Europe to succeed basically for story reasons.
     
  8. mojojojo Member Gone Fishin'

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    How much bigger:confused:
     
  9. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

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    Whe are bascally talking a -- Vinland survives, and attracts others-- Senerio here.

    A series of 10th~12th century contacts between Europe and America, would introduce Metal working, and Animal Husbandry.
    It would also allow the Americans to Adapt to both the new Ideas, and the disease pool, the Europeans bring with them.

    By the time Guns become the weapon of Choice, in the 15th century,
    the Americas have close to 3~4 hundred years of interaction with the Europeans.
     
  10. Atom Future Human

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    None, and Syphillis might also be a European disease, due to some skeletons found in England from the 1200s. as Tom Veil was saying with a two germ street the contact might be much worse for all of humanity. Depending on how many Native disaeses apear were talking 1/4-1/2 of all people diening possibly more! IT crazy how much death couldcome of this.
     
  11. HueyLong Banned

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    But.... they didn't. He's talking about having OTL up to the point where colonization starts.
     
  12. Atom Future Human

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    Were assuming that (like in Empty America) contact between the new world and Europe may be very difficult, allowing time fo these diseases to apear.
     
  13. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

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    For two way travel in the Disease pool, whe need American [immigrant] animals, to act as a reseivor between outbreaks.

    A few escaped Rats, Goats and Pigs may be enuff.
     
  14. Grimm Reaper Desperate But Not Serious

    Say, where DID the Empty America thread vanish to?:confused:
     
  15. Atom Future Human

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    It was on Soc.Hist.What.If Was there a thread on empty america on AH.com?
     
  16. Scarecrow Dieudonné

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    A couple of comments:

    1) It would have been far tougher for the colonists of EA to settle then any colonists IOTL without Native Americans and their effect on the physical environment of North and South America.

    2) A potential model for interaction by medieval European colonization of North America/The Caribbean would be the Baltic, for obvious reasons. However, North America would have a single trade good that could possibly spark European interest: tobacco.

    So if we have a slow trickle of boats across the Atlantic via Iceland-Greenland then it would be German Hanse, mainly from Bremen + Hamburg rather then the Mother City [Lubeck], and English traders from Bristol and (maybe) the Cinque ports in the 12th and 13th Centuries.

    If these traders discover tobacco from the natives then you could have trading forts established along the North American coast, rather then large scale colonization, at least in the modern sense of the word.

    You could have plantations set up to grow tobacco around these forts with European settlers planted in the New World, most probibly from Spain, Sicily or the Outermer, where they would have had contact with the plantation system of the Muslims. Sugar may also be grown, but its doubtful. the distances are to far to export it to Europe, although the Hanse/Bristol/Cinque traders may attempt to grow sugar in the New World to break the monopoly on the trade of sugar by the Venetian and Genoese traders.

    However at these trading forts you would have Dominicans and Franciscans, maybe even Cistercians. And they would be very eager to convert the native Americans. Large scale military action on par with the Northern Crusades would be unlikely, due to the cost of sending men across the Atlantic, since there are pagans closer to home for Crusaders to kill.

    So you would have a handful of trade factories dotting the North American coastline started by English or North German traders. Their population would mostly be English or Flemish (since the lowland bastards set up colonies everywhere across Europe in the middle ages), and at the plantation areas there would be Castilians and Aragonese, maybe even some Muslims.
    You could even have some Christian lords expelled from Outermer set up shop across the Atlantic, but its doubtful.
    Bristol, due to its geographical location may end up as the Lubeck of the north Atlantic, with the little factories being governed by Bristol law.

    Thats all I have for now. More later hopefully.
     
  17. Strategos' Risk Oriental Orientalist

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    From what I've been able to divine, the main divergences in EA other than no Bering Strait are-

    1. Norse settle in Vinland. (minor corollary- Norse paganism survives, as do some Baltic pagan refugees)

    2. Hereward the Wake leads Anglo-Saxons to North America thanks to #1, starts English colonies of Niwe Wessex and Niwe Mercia (the latter is later subsumed into the former).

    2a. Madoc and his Welsh refugee fleet really do flee to North America, don't really make much of a settlement.

    3. The Emirate of Granada is more expansionist, colonizing Madeira and later breaking free from the Almoravids to ally with the Venetians. (corollary- French Catharism survives by settling in Granadan territory and the Caribbean.)

    4. Because of #3, the Venetians begin a successful project in building trading posts in the Ursulines (Caribbean), the Iberians and other Italian city-states follow suit.

    4a. As a major corollary, they accidentally find the first wheelbow, invented by an eccentric Norse in Florida. This weapon has revolutionary ramifications.

    5. On the other side of the world, around 1242 the Emperor Gaozong sends a Chinese expedition to the New World (after hearing reports of giant beavers). Chinese exploration and settlement of the western coast of all of the Americans results.

    5a. Lots of technology is exchanged, as well as scientific thinking. Roger Bacon being captured in an English expedition by the Chinese and ending up living among them help this.

    6. All of this commerce and exploration eventually leads to the Mongol Great Khan Ogedei not dying. All of continental Europe east of France is conquered.

    Then lots of crazy things happen but I really don't think they count as specific divergences so much as they are in-story events.
     
  18. snerfuplz Liveral Fascist

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    Guns at least in the start of colonization were not that effective. I remember reading about how John Smith smashed his pistols to make sure the Indians did not figure out how terrible they were.

    The problem was the lack of domesticated animals in OTL. Smallpox seems to have evolved from some sort of horse disease which is ironic for the horse evolved in North America. The only way the Native Americans could carry out a germ war would be to live in close contact with some sort of domesticated animal.
     
  19. CanadianGoose Banned

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    OK, how about contacts between pre-Columbian America and Old World which is "just enough to bring all those Old World epidemics" but not enough for knowledge about the new world to spread? Let's say, 11-13 centuries. So, when Europeans start their adventure, they don't have an advantage of germs any more (virgin field epidemics came and gone and survivors and their offspring are immune).
     
  20. Grimm Reaper Desperate But Not Serious

    CanadianGoose, the reason European diseases were less serious to Europeans was that they kept appearing in reduced form every generation or two, eventually reduced to the level of children's illness, and this exposure kept them at a reduced level. Without that the Indians could wind up getting gutted all over again.:(