Empress Natalia

@Crying reminded me that I had a thread on this from about 4 years ago, and I was wondering if anyone had new ideas. Obviously, Natalia Alexeïevna marrying Friedrich the Great is pretty unlikely, but a fun thought to consider all the same. She didn't seem to care much for her Menshikov fiancé (from what I can make out), but I imagine that she'd be the "obvious" choice of a successor when Pyotr II dies. I'm not sure if Pyotr ever entertained ideas of marrying her off - either at home or abroad (maybe to his Dolgorukov bride's brother?) - but let's assume she ascends the throne single.

As empress, she can't marry just anybody - and she's in a very different position to her cousins (Anna Ivanovna) and half-aunt (Elizabeth Petrovna) - probably of a far different character too. So what would her life/reign/marriage look like, do you guys think?
 
@Crying reminded me that I had a thread on this from about 4 years ago, and I was wondering if anyone had new ideas. Obviously, Natalia Alexeïevna marrying Friedrich the Great is pretty unlikely, but a fun thought to consider all the same. She didn't seem to care much for her Menshikov fiancé (from what I can make out), but I imagine that she'd be the "obvious" choice of a successor when Pyotr II dies.
There was nothing obvious in a country without established rules of succession. What was obvious in selection a widow instead of a grandson? The right answer is “support of the Guards”.

Actually, with the male line gone choice between the lines was anything but obvious and OTL demonstrated that the daughter of Ivan won the competition. So Natalia would need a serious backup either in Supreme Council or among the Guards to get the throne.
 
Actually, with the male line gone choice between the lines was anything but obvious and OTL demonstrated that the daughter of Ivan won the competition. So Natalia would need a serious backup either in Supreme Council or among the Guards to get the throne.

I wonder if her uncle, Emperor Karl VI, would be able to be a scary enough strawman to persuade the Russians into going with her? I'm not sure Karl VI would do anything more for his niece than he "did" for Pyotr II, but that doesn't mean that the idea of him "doing" something on Natalia's behalf isn't going to present. OTL, they went with Anna Ivanovna over Ekaterina (who had a child) since they feared that Ekaterina's husband would come to Russia to throw his weight around. They passed over Anna Petrovna's son because they were scared that his father would use Russia to get Holstein back. I'm not sure why Elizabeth Petrovna wasn't considered for empress then already. And, considering her [Natalia] competition is a widow with no children (Anna Ivanovna), a child with a claim to the Swedish throne (Pyotr III) and her bastard half aunt (Elizabeth Petrovna), I figure Natalia stands as good a chance as any of them.

By the way, reposting these Russian language TL's again, for @alexmilman reading pleasure.
Old version, featuring Friedrich the Great as the Prince Consort of Russia and OTL Empress Elisabeth as Queen of Poland - http://samlib.ru/a/ai/1728.shtml
Reboot version, with scaled down changes http://alternativa.borda.ru/?1-13-120-00000107-000-10001-0-1140951916

Thanks
 
I wonder if her uncle, Emperor Karl VI, would be able to be a scary enough strawman to persuade the Russians into going with her? I'm not sure Karl VI would do anything more for his niece than he "did" for Pyotr II, but that doesn't mean that the idea of him "doing" something on Natalia's behalf isn't going to present. OTL, they went with Anna Ivanovna over Ekaterina (who had a child) since they feared that Ekaterina's husband would come to Russia to throw his weight around. They passed over Anna Petrovna's son because they were scared that his father would use Russia to get Holstein back. I'm not sure why Elizabeth Petrovna wasn't considered for empress then already.

Because Peter's descendants were not too popular at the time of the choice and, anyway, Elizabeth (and her sister) had legitimacy issue: they happened to be born out of a wedlock and a lot (mostly bad) could be said about their mother and her reign.

The members of Supreme Privy Council wanted a compliant pawn and Anne looked as an ideal candidate. Unfortunately for them, they relied too much on their own "legitimacy" while neglecting the objective factors like military backup. Which is strange if one keeps in mind that each of the leading families, Dolgorouki and Golitsyn, had a rather capable fieldmarshal. To succeed they needed to provide a serious military presence of the loyal troops in the capital but they did not bother and in no time the nobility (aka, the Guards) made it clear to Anne that Supreme Council does not have ...er.... "popular support" and "conditions" are worthless.

Eventually, it took Elizabeth years of a dedicated courting of the Guards AND a very weak regime of Anne Leopoldovna to stage her coup.

And, considering her [Natalia] competition is a widow with no children (Anna Ivanovna),

Not a minus. Plus at least some governing experience.

a child with a claim to the Swedish throne (Pyotr III) and her bastard half aunt (Elizabeth Petrovna), I figure Natalia stands as good a chance as any of them.

Well, yes. It all boils down to who is going to support her. If she spends some quality time drinking with the Guards (and courts some capable military figure able to use them when time arrives) then I'd say, she has a VERY GOOD chance.
 
By the way, reposting these Russian language TL's again, for @alexmilman reading pleasure.
Old version, featuring Friedrich the Great as the Prince Consort of Russia and OTL Empress Elisabeth as Queen of Poland - http://samlib.ru/a/ai/1728.shtml
Reboot version, with scaled down changes http://alternativa.borda.ru/?1-13-120-00000107-000-10001-0-1140951916

I assume that "Конрад" is you?

I liked the part which explains in some details the critical element of her accession, namely Ivan Dolgoruky being beaten by the Guards and his father thrown out of the window. This is impeccable (IMHO) recipe of a successful election. I'd also add the Guards regiments standing outside the palace and making their will ("will of the people") unambiguously clear to those who may get some funny ideas.

Of course, I have my doubts about Russian government working in an orderly fashion under any XVIII century ruler (to narrow the time frame). Hopefully, you don't need to re-read "History of the Russian State" by A.K.Tolstoy to figure out an absence of the "orderly" part. :)
 
No. That's not me. I use cross-gender nickname on fai.org.ru, but that's Charles.
The topicstarter in question has not posted anything for a long time.
 
Since Pyotr Velikiy sort of *fiddled with the "traditional" succession laws, and stipulated that the emperor could name his own successor, is it impossible that Pyotr II names or "NAMES" Natalia as his successor? Otherwise, would it be unthinkable for the faction which replaced Menshikov to try and persuade Pyotr II to "reinstate" (probably create entirely new ones under the veneer of them being the old laws) the previous order of succession?

*by fiddled I mean chucked out the window and rode over them with an army tank then set them on fire :)
 
Since Pyotr Velikiy sort of *fiddled with the "traditional" succession laws, and stipulated that the emperor could name his own successor, is it impossible that Pyotr II names or "NAMES" Natalia as his successor?

No problem.


Otherwise, would it be unthinkable for the faction which replaced Menshikov to try and persuade Pyotr II to "reinstate" (probably create entirely new ones under the veneer of them being the old laws) the previous order of succession?

I'm not sure that there was a will to do such a thing: too many people benefited or expected to benefit from the ongoing mess. Ivan Dolgorukov even wrote a false will of Peter II in which the throne was going to his fiance (Ivan's sister).

*by fiddled I mean chucked out the window and rode over them with an army tank then set them on fire :)

There was not too much to throw out of the window: the written laws did not exist, a tradition of passing the throne from father to the elder son was broken after the death of Feodor III when, in an absence of the "traditional" scenario, the issue was decided pretty much by an armed mob.
 
Okay, so Petrushka names Natalia as his heiress in the event of his death without children. He dies, and the Dolgorukovs produce a false will to make Ekaterina Dolgorukova empress, but Natalia (and some of the other courtiers/nobles/guards who are part of the anti-Dolgorukov faction) launches a successful counter-coup and ends up as empress. Anna Ivanovna stays in Courland - Natalia maybe forces through a marriage between the Marechal de Saxe (naming him as heir to Courland) and Elizabeth Petrovna (the Marechal refused Anna's hand when told that it was conditional).
 
Okay, so Petrushka names Natalia as his heiress in the event of his death without children. He dies, and the Dolgorukovs produce a false will to make Ekaterina Dolgorukova empress,

Did not work in OTL is not going to work in AH: nobody, even Supreme Council wanted her as an empress because this would give too much power to Dolgorukov clan.

but Natalia (and some of the other courtiers/nobles/guards who are part of the anti-Dolgorukov faction) launches a successful counter-coup and ends up as empress. Anna Ivanovna stays in Courland - Natalia maybe forces through a marriage between the Marechal de Saxe (naming him as heir to Courland) and Elizabeth Petrovna (the Marechal refused Anna's hand when told that it was conditional).

It may of may not happen and the only noticeable difference would be potential de Saxe's absence on the French service (what he is going to get as a reward for marriage?) , with the serious side effects outside Russian sphere of influence.
 
Did not work in OTL is not going to work in AH: nobody, even Supreme Council wanted her as an empress because this would give too much power to Dolgorukov clan.

So Natalia's counter-coup is likely to have the support of everyone who isn't a Dolgorukov then?

It may of may not happen and the only noticeable difference would be potential de Saxe's absence on the French service (what he is going to get as a reward for marriage?) , with the serious side effects outside Russian sphere of influence.

For de Saxe's marriage to Elizabeth, I was planning on Saxe being acknowledged as Anna's successor. OTL, Ludwig Ernst of Brunswick came to Russia (alongside Anton Ulrich to wed Anna Leopoldovna) in the hope of getting a marriage to Liz and lordship of Courland. I'm not sure what would be Elizabeth's dower if she wed one of the other boys proposed for her - Ludwig Johann of Hesse-Homburg (who married a Trubetski princess OTL), or Karl of Holstein (both of whom had come to St. Petersburg with a kinsman to wed Pyotr Velikiy's daughters, and where half the party (Karl of Holstein, and Ludwig's brother) had died). But, considering that both those boys were in Pyotr Velikiy or her mother's reign, I'm not sure if either would still be on the table.
 
So Natalia's counter-coup is likely to have the support of everyone who isn't a Dolgorukov then?

This is an idealized scenario but potentially she could arrange for something reasonably close. Or she could go the same way as Catherine I, Elizabeth, Fieldmarshal Munnich and Catherine II: find support among the Guards. With a reasonably impressive show of a military strength "everyone" will be in line for kissing her hand.



For de Saxe's marriage to Elizabeth, I was planning on Saxe being acknowledged as Anna's successor.

Formally, there could be difficulties because Courland was vassal of the PLC and, anyway, why would Maurice be interested in something which may or may not happen in a remote future? And, BTW, why any ruler of Russia would be really interested in this marriage?
 
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