Empires of the Plains: the Comanche Genghis Khan

So, just finished reading the Comanche Empire. A fascinating look at how the Comanches evolved and changed as they adopted horses, and how they would demand tribute or raid the Spanish colonies in New Mexico and Texas.
The author doesn't make the comparison, but there seem to be a lot of similarities between the Comanches and nomadic empires in Eurasia. They were bought off with tribute--- sorry, gifts, which the Spaniards and Mexicans hoped would civilize them; if their ...demands were not met, they would raid their neighbors. It's interesting because they seemed to have reached their apogee in the 1830s and 1840s, raiding south into Mexico, and briefly reaching only a couple hundred miles north of Mexico City. meanwhile, their society underwent rapid social stratification with an underclass of slaves they captured from New Spain/Mexico and neighboring tribes.

And then their population collapses due to overexploitation of the buffalo, disease, and the US army. Sic Semper Nomadis.

Anyway, a couple of thoughts: 1) In a world with European expansion, could we see nomadic empires in the Plains raiding southward, eventually overrunning Mesoamerica? and 2) what about an actual Comanche Empire? They never really set up an administrative system, content to raid, demand tribute, and trade, but an 18th century Comanche Genghis during the Mexican War of Independence would be pretty interesting.
 
In my new TL Playing the Game Our Own Way, the US did not agree to help Mexico stop Comanche and Apache raids like they did in OTL, so these group are still ravaging Mexico.

They won't be able to create a Comanche dominated Central America, but grab some land in Northern mexico? Perhaps.
 
what about an actual Comanche Empire? They never really set up an administrative system, content to raid, demand tribute, and trade, but an 18th century Comanche Genghis during the Mexican War of Independence would be pretty interesting.

I actually wonder why this didn't happen in OTL. Plenty of African and Pacific Island empires were built during this time or a little later, using guns bought from Europeans, although these empires didn't last very long once the front lines of colonialism reached them. The Comanche surely had some notion of imperial administration through contact with New Spain, and it seems like they could have done the same thing. Maybe the only missing ingredient was a charismatic leader who could unite the Comanche bands - a Genghis Khan, as you say, or a Kamehameha or Msiri - and there could have been such an empire.

I suspect it would have been as much a house of cards as the Mongol empire was, though, and that the subject peoples would be willing proxies for its European enemies.
 
Basically, steppe nomads lost their military advantage once infantry gained guns. So, youd have to postulate a plains indian culture based on horses, but where their opponents didnt have guns. Eg, a Vinland scenario, where horses are introduced 500 years early.
 
One thing that you have to remember about Comanches is that they often kidnapped post infantile/prepubescent children that they would then integrate into their culture. Also they had an extremely democratic society where a child captured from another group could start out as a slave and grow up to be an elected chief. So could write a TL in which anyone (whose family would pass through Comanche lands during said one's childhood) could then be kidnapped and then grow into your Comanche Genghis Khan, particularly those who where great military leaders from OTL and who showed such good skills from childhood.

In my new TL Playing the Game Our Own Way, the US did not agree to help Mexico stop Comanche and Apache raids like they did in OTL, so these group are still ravaging Mexico.

They won't be able to create a Comanche dominated Central America, but grab some land in Northern mexico? Perhaps.
When did the US do that?
 
Basically, steppe nomads lost their military advantage once infantry gained guns. So, youd have to postulate a plains indian culture based on horses, but where their opponents didnt have guns. Eg, a Vinland scenario, where horses are introduced 500 years early.

Meh. All we are talking about is a window in time, defined by their logistic isolation as much as anything. The Crimean Tatars were still running slave raids as far as the suburbs of Moscow centuries after guns came to Europe.
 
Meh. All we are talking about is a window in time, defined by their logistic isolation as much as anything. The Crimean Tatars were still running slave raids as far as the suburbs of Moscow centuries after guns came to Europe.
Yes, but. The Steppes peoples (Turks/Mongols/whatever) ceased to be an existential threat to the agricultural Slavs once the Slavs got guns. First they freed themselves from Mongol rule, then they started expanding east.

Since the OP isn't talking minor border raids (which would last rather longer), but a Genghis Khan -like ferocious overwhelming military power, I think that definitely has to be before guns.
 
I actually wonder why this didn't happen in OTL. Plenty of African and Pacific Island empires were built during this time or a little later, using guns bought from Europeans, although these empires didn't last very long once the front lines of colonialism reached them. The Comanche surely had some notion of imperial administration through contact with New Spain, and it seems like they could have done the same thing. Maybe the only missing ingredient was a charismatic leader who could unite the Comanche bands - a Genghis Khan, as you say, or a Kamehameha or Msiri - and there could have been such an empire.

I suspect it would have been as much a house of cards as the Mongol empire was, though, and that the subject peoples would be willing proxies for its European enemies.

I cringe to imagine the "destruction of the Comanche empire" westerns that no doubt would be filmed. :)
 
Yes, but. The Steppes peoples (Turks/Mongols/whatever) ceased to be an existential threat to the agricultural Slavs once the Slavs got guns. First they freed themselves from Mongol rule, then they started expanding east.

Since the OP isn't talking minor border raids (which would last rather longer), but a Genghis Khan -like ferocious overwhelming military power, I think that definitely has to be before guns.
I agree with this.
 
I also agree, the reality was that the Mongols and the rest of the world were on a technological par for all intents and purposes. This allowed Mongol mobility and military skill/fierceness to be decisive. especially against fortified positions/cities with gunpowder weapons, light cavalry with bows and arrows is not going to prevail.
 
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