Empires Galore

Empires Galore
An alternate timeline with two changes:
-Germany: No Austrian/Prussian dispute and no 30 years war. (Religious freedom, more or less). Mini-Revolution with more constitutional power, successful.
-Britain/America: The revolution begins on schedule, but escalates into a bloodier war. British outraged, along with Americans. British want revenge. Over the course of history they launch several attempts (most of them useless.
Well, give remarcks, opinions, advice.
 
This is an interesting proposal, but there are two main issues:

The German state is almost impossible without Prussia. If a German Confederation existed at all without Prussia, it would have been unified much, much later and possibly under foreign rule.

Secondly, the American Colonies were not as important to the British as India or Canada. Had Canada, with its lucrative fur trade, decided to rebel instead, there might have been a much different British response. However, the British had enough forces in the Thirteen Colonies to quell a rebellion and didn't think much of it until the French got involved at which point it was too expensive and straining to commit more forces to the Americas. And remember--the United States and Britain didn't get along for a long time after. It was only through manic mercantilism that Britain and the United States decided to be friendly again. Also, Britain did make attempts at revenge. Does anybody remember when Canada burned Washington, D.C. to the ground? I don't because I wasn't alive then, but I'm sure it was grand.

Explore the time periods you're asking about a little more. Play around with other what-if's, such as a change in Prime Minister due to this blunder, or a coup d'etat following King George's madness, etc. etc. Play around with small events and make plausible leaps of faith to new events and see what plays out. :)
 
Hmmm... Well, its been only 5 minutes, and already I'm itching for comments. I'm so impatient...
Anyways, I'll further explain Germany.

The HRE was troubled by the fact of the division of it's people (Protestant VS. Catholic). However, a smart person within the Empire (isn't known EXACTLY whom), forseeing bad times for the HRE if they still stay divided like this, advises more or less religious freedom. The government, seeing a riot or two already, quickly accepts. This leads to the firm unification of the Empire from Austria to Prussia and elsewhere. No 30 years war. The HRE, seeing they are not close to anywhere like a Roman Empire (Italy is fully seperate) decide to give up on the notion, and we have the German Empire. Basically, it is a large, powerful German Empire that is basically Prussia AND Austria together (Hungary is a minor state next to Austria). With this, The HRE has transformed efficiently into an Empire encompassing lots of Central Europe, even having a small land corridor next to Venice! (The Netherlands are under heavy influence of Germany)


Well, this took an hour to write, effectively studying the time period. And the map, too...:
German Empire.PNG

German Empire.PNG
 
Maybe if Austria decides to become Protestant (emperor Maximilian had some sympathies, so it's not completely impossible), the scale would be tipped in favor of Protestantism in Germany (they already had a majority). The surviving Catholic enclaves (Bavaria, bisthums of the empire's church) would fall, so Germany has one faith (and probably some states less). Only the first step, but it is a step.
 
Britain furious?
That sounds like the population is fully behind the war....
I don't fancy Americas chances in that case.
 
No real comment except I'm annoyed the way people keep saying that Canadians burnt Washington during the war of 1812. For God's sake, Canada had nothing to do with it, it was British troops and commanders all the way. The Canadian militias were too busy keeping the Americans out of canada.
 
Oh, boy, it is SO easy to start a war between America and Britain in the early years. But, I'll start the timeline. The 30 Years War is avoided, which means Germany (HRE at first)

1512- Reforms done by king.
1517- The crisis of the Reformation by Martin Luther. Riots. The HRE, seeing (unlike their OTL counterpart) the danger of this, officially declare the HREGN having religious freedom of Christianity, and thus, Protestants AND Catholics are allowed. Also, the HREGN proclaims that is now nowofficially the German Empire, to spark nationalism. Many see this as a wise path, as nationalism would rise over the next 200 years. Some of the southern-most Italian colonies secede. The German Empire views this as a good thing, as the Catholic-proud provinces would only cause trouble for the new order of Germany. Germany still keeps Northwestern Italy, however, and has a decent port there.
1518- Protestants flood the country. New rules are being made to ensure that the break doesn't happen. The new German Empire realises the solution to one of its worst problems (the Pope had control) was gone as the Pope finally cut his political ties with the HRE/GE when Protestants were allowed.
1519- The Emperor Charles V of the German Empire is assasinated, presumably by the Pope's agents. Germany goes into a small chaos, however, a Duke Hans of Brandenburg takes power by aiming the people against the Pope, which he claimed is trying to undermine the Empire. An army is raised and he goes to the provinces next to Italy. He attacks, most of the attacks being from the north and west of Italy. The divided states fell, and he got to the Papal states. When Europe heard of this they all threatened the German Empire of war. Hans quickly retreated, but German borders were still moved in the Germans favor. They moved a little south, and took most of northwestern Italy, including Genova.
1520-1791: The German Empire mostly stays the same, and soon has the Netherlands as a semi-autonomous kingdom. Hungary is being more and more Germanized, and is a very close ally. In other countries, things happen mostly as OTL. Including the American Revolution. The new German Empire also took in a province named Prussia, on accounts of the population being mostly German. The Emperor feared fragmentation, so they became isolationist and strove to perfect the country. During this time you also see the Genovan, Baltic, and North Sea fleets being enlargened.
1792- The French become a Respublic. The Empire of Germany joins the coalition. On the eastern borders of the Empire (which are alll with france) troops start coming in. Germany attacks France. The total war policy in France starts under Napoleon. Now having 1 strong empire to fight, the French are defeated, a lot. However, the total war policies start to kick in and France attacks the southern border. They rip through to weak Italy. However, soon Napoleon is harassed from the north by Germany. Napoleon is pressed to attack the Germans. Soon after he leaves, the Italians start to push north more or less successfully.
1793- Napoleon finds out of the Spanish offenssive, and the British attacks on north France. He soon sees that he is also blocked from France by a German force in the Lithurgian sea area. Soon, the small German Genovan starts bombarding him. He decides to pit his army north against the forces in Switzerland. He also sends a messenger to sneak through to France and tell them to invade Germany through Luxembourg and march on Berlin. And to try to hold the British and Spanish at bay. Large French forces soon march on Berlin, along with Napoleons. The two meet and march on Berlin together. They devastate the German army during this campaign, and the tiny navies can't help the army. Britain and Spain start pushing in on France, however, and Napoleon hasto divert men. Panicking, the German Empire under Frankell II proclaims a similar total war policy. This, along with the Italians, Spanish, and British marching on France, makes Napoleon slowly retreat until he's out of German territory by 1794.
1794- Germany signs peace treaty with France, being weak and tired. Napoleon then drives the British out, and invades Spain after destroying the army in France.. He takes Spain by 1795. He then has the French Fleets get his army to Italy without crossing German Genova. Germany, meanwhile, gets back on its feet and starts to change its army to a more modern style, like Napoleon's. Napoleon takes Piedmont, Sardinia, and attacks Naples.
1795- Papal State signs provisional peace treaty with the French. Naples signs armistice. Britain is the only Anti-French country fighting.
1796- Britain, Germany, Russia, Portugal, Naples, Ottoman Empire, and the Papal States enter the Coalition. France occupies the Italian Coalition members after a quick invasion. Portugal and Britain start liberating Spain. Russia starts Italian offensive. Britain announces naval siege of France. Spanish offensives liberate Spain and start piercing South France. Napoleon's campaign in Italy fails as the German army starts destroying his forces with his tactics, and the Russian force starts liberating the south. At this time, Germany also notes the U.S.-Anglo relations.
1797- March On Paris begins. Soon, Coalition troops hold Paris. Napoleon is dead because of the Battle For Paris. Germany takes minor territories in South France, and a little of North France.
1798- Germany, seeing the brilliance of Napoleon's tactics, starts completely overhauling the Army. They also start a small navy build-up, and the Genoan, Baltic, North, and even Adriatic fleets are made.

OK. Phew. We'll soon see America getting more involved in this TL as Germany makes an ally out of America...:D
 
Also, the HREGN proclaims that is now nowofficially the German Empire, to spark nationalism.

You must remember though that the German nationalist movement didn't truly pick up until after Napoleon marched across the Rhine. As a matter of fact, the 16th Century marks the very beginning of centralization and nationalism as idealogical movements in and of themselves. Thus, I could see a gradually centralizing HRE starting in this time period. However, until, perhaps, the late 17th Century, such steps will be marginal at best.
 
Nice idea, but seems a bit ASBttic, doesn't it?

At first, as Fatstalin has pointed out, the intellectual preconditions for nationalism had not been created.

Then, without a 30 years war, it is not plausible that Switzerland is independent, and almost similarly for the Netherlands.

Dropping the name "Roman Empire" also needs a bit more reasoning. Note that there are still a lot of non-German speakers in the Empire.

Note also that sovereigns of the political entities inside the Empire have to lose their power at some point. They will not agree at once ,_)

I guess you sort of try to skip the time 1600-1800.
Perhaps your TL needs a couple more details in between, and also some reasons why the 30 YW did not take place.
 
when the German Empire formed, I think northern Italy (down to the Papal states south of Ferrera and Florence) was still in the HRE (minus Venice and Genoa of course), but I'm not exactly sure when they left.
 
when the German Empire formed, I think northern Italy (down to the Papal states south of Ferrera and Florence) was still in the HRE (minus Venice and Genoa of course), but I'm not exactly sure when they left.

The Empire's control over Northern Italy was minimal at best...

It had been that way for centuaries.

I'm not sure if there was any fixed date for them leaving...
 
Note that the title "Roman Empire" does not mean the claim to include Rome, or rule the Mediterranean. Rather it was a claim to the predominant religious and secular authority of Rome.
The title "Heiliger Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation" does contain a reference to the German people. For an analogy, think of Moscow's claim to be the Third Rome.
 
Well, the simplest way to exclude the whole Prussia problem is to have the Teutonic Knights secularise under a Grand Master who is not a Hohenzollern, OR to have the daughters/heiresses of the original Prussian line NOT marry into the Brandenburg Prussian line, but somewhere else. Thus you will still end up with Prussia Germanised, but without it merging with Brandenburg to become eventually uber powerful

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Hmm, interesting. If you notice, I started this a year ago so I didn't have as much experience now. I only restarted it because a member asked me to. Now then, I will reform this timeline quite a bit, because by know I don't even remember half of what I was thinking back then.
Basically, I want an HRE that is unified as a German, more-or-less, state. And earlier, of course. I want to achieve this goal, but I want your help on possible ideas.
 
I still think it's a nice idea. So it looks like we may overcome some issues of the first suggestions.

So basically, the HRE is going to a) survive as a relevant entity, and b) centralize.
b) does not look too hard to imagine if we can arrange for a).

I primarily see three primary reasons why the Empire became meaningless:

i) As you had noticed from the beginning, the Protestant states did not feel represented.
The Reichsdeputationshauptschluss of 1803, which brought about secularization, was in a way a late attempt to save the Empire. Ignoring secularization as we are still talking about the 17th and 18th cents., it is interesting that they only saw a chance for the Empire if there was equal representation of Catholic and Protestant thrones among the electors!
I think you should adopt that ruling. It could be found in the peace treaty of an alternate (shorter?) 30YW, or in the treaty which anticipated it.

(However, I would advise you to let the Free Imperial Cities live, for the time being.
I think they can play a major rule if you want a real state in a modern sense. I also think that cancelling the clerical Imperial States (geistliche Reichsstaende - is that right in English?) would be to harsh a step in the 16th and early 17th century.)


ii) Prussia's want for self-actualization (not possible inside the Empire due to i)).
Grey Wolf has worked out a nice way to avoid that giant state.

iii) There were not really many issues for which the empirial level was needed.
We should design some "killing application" that the princes in the 17th century would agree "if we would not have an Empire, we would have to found one".
I think this is a very important point. Actually, I do not have much of an idea.
Such a reason might be a military threat, e.g. France threatens several states at the same time, which could lead to an increase in the imperial forces, until the single states are almost defenseless without them.
However, I would prefer other arguments, e.g. on economic grounds.
 
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