Emasculated Prussia in the 19th Century?

[avernite]

I don't recall ever saying they weren't lucky, the difference is when opportunity came a knocking they seized it,challenged the status quo and came out of it a great power and wittlesbach didn't, they went back to being a second rate German dynasty.

Not for lack of trying, though. They had an emperor in the 1300's and in the 1700's, and they must've stabbed their various neighbours a couple dozen times (most prominently by joining Napoleon).

They failed to achieve the ultimate prize of German unification, sure, but all three Scandinavian kingdoms, Bohemia (contested), Hungary, Greece, and the HRE were all theirs at various points. They had 2 Emperors to the Hohenzollerns' 2.5, so I'm not sure it's all that much worse.

 

[JackLumber]

Not for lack of trying, though. They had an emperor in the 1300's and in the 1700's, and they must've stabbed their various neighbours a couple dozen times (most prominently by joining Napoleon).

They failed to achieve the ultimate prize of German unification, sure, but all three Scandinavian kingdoms, Bohemia (contested), Hungary, Greece, and the HRE were all theirs at various points. They had 2 Emperors to the Hohenzollerns' 2.5, so I'm not sure it's all that much worse.

The German Emperor was a superior position, the Holy Roman Emperor title often didn't mean much outside of prestige (at least for much of the HREs existence it was)

 

[avernite]

The German Emperor was a superior position, the Holy Roman Emperor title often didn't mean much outside of prestige (at least for much of the HREs existence it was)

The 1700's, I agree. The 1300's it still had oomph (though certainly not the 11th/12th century, or even late 15th/early 16th century, value).

 

[JackLumber]

The 1700's, I agree. The 1300's it still had oomph (though certainly not the 11th/12th century, or even late 15th/early 16th century, value).

But did it have German Emperor oomph in the 1300s?

 

[JonasResende]

Okay, guys, much as I am enjoying the spirited debate, this seems to be (because of a comment I made) descending a into Hohenzollern vs Wittelsbach complaint. If we want that we can point out the rivalry between the Wettins and the Hohenzollerns was what kickstarted the reformation - Albrecht of Brandenburg having to raise taxes in order to be elected to the Archbishopric of Mainz - blah-blah.

Now, what I'm asking is what if Prussia isn't the (only) premier power in Germany in 1815. AFAIK, her army was pretty much run to seed when Wilhelm I tried to bring in his reforms, so, this is the situation it develops from: Prussia gets the Rhineland and Swedish Pomerania, nothing else. Saxony stays its 1810/1814 size, and because it jumps ship more/less at the same time as Bavaria gets similar compensation at alt-Vienna (I'm thinking Saxony gets parts of Silesia, maybe - partitioned with Austria, much like Bavaria did a couple territory swaps with Austria). Saxony and Bavaria are likely both to be regarded with suspicion but OTL even that didn't seem to stick very long. How does this affect German Unification? There's 30 Years between 1815 and 1848, in which a lot can change - Friedrich Wilhelm IV can have a son, Wilhelm I can marry Elisa Radziwill, Franz Josef can marry a Prussian princess like he wanted to (and those are just in the familial matters). - so how might this affect matters.

What might Saxony get (if any) as compensation? And if Bavaria gets but Saxony doesn't, can/will Saxony kick up a fuss about it?

 

[JackLumber]

Okay, guys, much as I am enjoying the spirited debate, this seems to be (because of a comment I made) descending a into Hohenzollern vs Wittelsbach complaint. If we want that we can point out the rivalry between the Wettins and the Hohenzollerns was what kickstarted the reformation - Albrecht of Brandenburg having to raise taxes in order to be elected to the Archbishopric of Mainz - blah-blah.

Now, what I'm asking is what if Prussia isn't the (only) premier power in Germany in 1815. AFAIK, her army was pretty much run to seed when Wilhelm I tried to bring in his reforms, so, this is the situation it develops from: Prussia gets the Rhineland and Swedish Pomerania, nothing else. Saxony stays its 1810/1814 size, and because it jumps ship more/less at the same time as Bavaria gets similar compensation at alt-Vienna (I'm thinking Saxony gets parts of Silesia, maybe - partitioned with Austria, much like Bavaria did a couple territory swaps with Austria). Saxony and Bavaria are likely both to be regarded with suspicion but OTL even that didn't seem to stick very long. How does this affect German Unification? There's 30 Years between 1815 and 1848, in which a lot can change - Friedrich Wilhelm IV can have a son, Wilhelm I can marry Elisa Radziwill, Franz Josef can marry a Prussian princess like he wanted to (and those are just in the familial matters). - so how might this affect matters.

What might Saxony get (if any) as compensation? And if Bavaria gets but Saxony doesn't, can/will Saxony kick up a fuss about it?

Prussia has silesia, Saxony isn't getting any of it, Saxony honestly probably won't get anything and they can kick up all the fuss they want the only one they could get to back them is Austria and Russia and Britain were the ones that matter most here.

 

[Larus Marinus]

This map I found might come in handy:

Assuming Saxony is compensated at all (which isn't a given), perhaps they'll be compensated with territory in Thuringia? That might upset the extended Wettin family, but I'm not sure if that's something they'd take into consideration


Are we assuming that Prussia doesn't even get Posen for whatever reason, or were you just talking about German lands when you said "The Rhineland and Swedish Pomerania, nothing else"?

 

[Joshuapooleanox]

While I'm no expert on German/Prussian affairs, I definitely know that Prussia getting the Rhineland was key to their German unification, as it basically trapped all German states between Prussia. You want to go to see the Netherlands? Prussia. Russia? Prussia. Belgium? Prussia. France? Guess who?... Kidding its Prussia. That sorta entrapment feeling was probably what helped to force the smaller German states to unite with Prussia later on. You don't want to join Prussia's empire? Ok, we'll just take your land. Have fun you 1 in a million German prince with no foreign support! This could lead to a separate German state, probably based around liberal ideas e.g. 1848 rather than a Prussian German Empire.

 

[Larus Marinus]

While I'm no expert on German/Prussian affairs, I definitely know that Prussia getting the Rhineland was key to their German unification, as it basically trapped all German states between Prussia. You want to go to see the Netherlands? Prussia. Russia? Prussia. Belgium? Prussia. France? Guess who?... Kidding its Prussia. That sorta entrapment feeling was probably what helped to force the smaller German states to unite with Prussia later on. You don't want to join Prussia's empire? Ok, we'll just take your land. Have fun you 1 in a million German prince with no foreign support! This could lead to a separate German state, probably based around liberal ideas e.g. 1848 rather than a Prussian German Empire.

That's certainly a major reason for why the lesser German states were very pro-Zollverein, but it's not quite the whole narrative. After all, Mecklenburg and Oldenburg, two coastal states that weren't really entrapped per se, were both among Prussia's most ardent supporters, and its only committed allies during the war that led to the dissolution of the German Confederation.

I should also note that the average "1 in a million German prince" could often count on the support of either Austria, Russia or France depending on the situation. Russia, at least early on, saw itself as the defender of the rights of the lesser German princes.

That said, you are of course quite right when you say that the Rhineland was very important to Prussia's role as German unifier.

 

[Joshuapooleanox]

That's certainly a major reason for why the lesser German states were very pro-Zollverein, but it's not quite the whole narrative. After all, Mecklenburg and Oldenburg, two coastal states, were both among Prussia's most ardent supporters, and its only committed allies during the war that led to the dissolution of the German Confederation.

I should also note that the average "1 in a million German prince" could often count on the support of either Austria, Russia or France depending on the situation. Russia, at least early on, saw itself as the defender of the rights of the lesser German princes.

That said, you are of course quite right when you say that the Rhineland was very important to Prussia's role as German unifier.

Thanks, my expertise is Roman/classical/medieval history, but I'm studying German/British for my course, so I'm at least trying to contrbiute. There were so many German princes, and while say Mecklenburg, Holstein or other larger ones could gain support from other powers, Mainz, Frankfurt, or the guy who's prince of maybe 400 acers of land around his house isn't, they are the majority of princes, the lords of 'Insert German Name Here' manor.

 

[Tibi088]

Also many forget that Germany itself wasnt a beast it became later in 1815. Take a look at german populace and industrial numbers in 1815 and compare it to France - be surprised. A unified Germany wouldnt be stronger than France at the time.

 

[Joshuapooleanox]

Also many forget that Germany itself wasnt a beast it became later in 1815. Take a look at german populace and industrial numbers in 1815 and compare it to France - be surprised. A unified Germany wouldnt be stronger than France at the time.

Well, Germany was more urbanised than France, so later on that helped. Not to mention after the Napoleonic wars it really damaged their industry. Then the Prussian invasion ruined northern France, yeah all bad.

It was less Germany's mega growth that beat France, it was more that it was a mix of kicking France down and it rising moderately that led to defeat France three times, Franco-Prussian, WW1, WW2.

 

[JonasResende]

Hence why Prussia's still gonna be heading any idea of a German state, provided Austria doesn't get the jump on them. Even if Saxony isn't carved up like a Christmas goose and Bavaria is the second largest state in Kleindeutschland. Gotcha. I guess I just had this crazy idea that somehow Prussian hegemony could be avoided in someway (and please don't think I'm anti-Prussian, my (maternal) family actually comes from there). Pity.

 

[JackLumber]

Hence why Prussia's still gonna be heading any idea of a German state, provided Austria doesn't get the jump on them. Even if Saxony isn't carved up like a Christmas goose and Bavaria is the second largest state in Kleindeutschland. Gotcha. I guess I just had this crazy idea that somehow Prussian hegemony could be avoided in someway (and please don't think I'm anti-Prussian, my (maternal) family actually comes from there). Pity.

It can be quite easily in all honesty (and this is coming from an unapologetic Prussophile), it just gets much more difficult post napoleon

 

[Deleted member 92195]

Everyone eventually fails, the key is what you get done in the mean time and as a Hohenzollern Fanboy I may talk trash about the Habsburgs but that's just normal german dualism rivalry stuff, it really doesn't mean I have any disrespect for them.
Unlike those disappointing Wittelsbachs

The reason why the Habsburgs failed, in the end, is that they truly did have to much power and did not consolidate it, I cannot think of any other dynasty where power appears to have been literally overflowing.

If you take Spanish Habsburg inheritance out of the equation they would have definitely united the Holy Roman Empire, I think incest would not have occurred as much as it did and they would not have been in that constant power dilemma.

It also appears that they were generally incompetent at welding power (maybe because there was too much) as there were so many complex issues. They ruled a decentralised Habsburg land and then they were an Emperor of a greater decentralised state; then they have a sister state that is of a different religion and owns half the world.

 

[Janprimus]

The reason why the Habsburgs failed, in the end, is that they truly did have to much power and did not consolidate it, I cannot think of any other dynasty where power appears to have been literally overflowing.

If you take Spanish Habsburg inheritance out of the equation they would have definitely united the Holy Roman Empire, I think incest would not have occurred as much as it did and they would not have been in that constant power dilemma.

It also appears that they were generally incompetent at welding power (maybe because there was too much) as there were so many complex issues. They ruled a decentralised Habsburg land and then they were an Emperor of a greater decentralised state; then they have a sister state that is of a different religion and owns half the world.

Well a different division would already have helped a lot. You probably need a Philip the Handsome to survive a bit longer to enforce a different division in his will, but an inheritance were Charles ends up with the Crown of Castille & the Crown of Aragon, and Ferdinand inherits the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Inheritance, ideally Ferdinand still also ends up with Bohemia & Hungary. The Austrian Habsburgs were just as Roman Catholic as their Spanish Habsburg cousins.

Regarding Saxony getting compensation, Saxony only having to cede Cottbus back to Prussia would already be a mild. The ruler of Saxony losing the duchy of Warsaw won't change. They might be restored to their pre-1806 borders, or they won't get the Thuringian territories back they lost in 1806. All these option are much milder than OTL.

 

[Deleted member 92195]

Well a different division would already have helped a lot. You probably need a Philip the Handsome to survive a bit longer to enforce a different division in his will, but an inheritance were Charles ends up with the Crown of Castille & the Crown of Aragon, and Ferdinand inherits the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Inheritance, ideally Ferdinand still also ends up with Bohemia & Hungary. The Austrian Habsburgs were just as Roman Catholic as their Spanish Habsburg cousins.

Regarding Saxony getting compensation, Saxony only having to cede Cottbus back to Prussia would already be a mild. The ruler of Saxony losing the duchy of Warsaw won't change. They might be restored to their pre-1806 borders, or they won't get the Thuringian territories back they lost in 1806. All these option are much milder than OTL.

I found some research on protestantism in Austria and from the research I read that Austria did become Protestant (this is in very short space of time!) and this was going to flourish but because Spain was Catholic and the use of Spanish inquisition, Austria reverted back to Catholicism. I am sure you aware of the implications of Austria becoming protestant.

 

[Janprimus]

I found some research on Protestantism in Austria and from the research I read that Austria did become Protestant (this is in very short space of time!) and this was going to flourish but because of the Spain was Catholic and the use of Spanish inquisition, Austria reverted back to Catholicism. I am sure you aware of the implications of Austria becoming Protestant.

I know large areas, mostly in Eastern areas, of Austria had converted at a certain point, however the Counter Reformation was not only because of Spanish support. The Habsburgs, as the Imperial dynasty, had not the same political benefits from converting as the average Prince of the Empire. Heck a reformation driven by the Emperor, would have made many of the political opportunistic Noble converts (to Protestantism) much more content with the Catholic Church. They don't need to convert back, but they could still support the Catholic Church, or perhaps more likely with a Lutheran Emperor, more Princes would have embraced Calvinism. The Reformation was not only Religious, it also had a political component for those in power.

Disregarding the political component people either became Protestant or stayed Catholic, because they believed that was the right/true faith. This of course also applies to dynasties, the Habsburgs staying Catholic, or Wettins and Hohenzollerns becoming Lutheran also had such a personal component.

Given the Cuius Regio, Eius Religio, that decision was basically moved from the populace to the ruling dynasty; that principle (potentially) sealed the fate of Protestants in Habsburg lands and the fate of Catholics in lands ruled by Protestant dynasties.

 

[Deleted member 92195]

I know large areas, mostly in Eastern areas, of Austria had converted at a certain point, however the Counter Reformation was not only because of Spanish support. The Habsburgs, as the Imperial dynasty, had not the same political benefits from converting as the average Prince of the Empire. Heck a reformation driven by the Emperor, would have made many of the political opportunistic Noble converts (to Protestantism) much more content with the Catholic Church. They don't need to convert back, but they could still support the Catholic Church, or perhaps more likely with a Lutheran Emperor, more Princes would have embraced Calvinism. The Reformation was not only Religious, it also had a political component for those in power.

Disregarding the political component people either became Protestant or stayed Catholic, because they believed that was the right/true faith. This of course also applies to dynasties, the Habsburgs staying Catholic, or Wettins and Hohenzollerns becoming Lutheran also had such a personal component.

Given the Cuius Regio, Eius Religio, that decision was basically moved from the populace to the ruling dynasty; that principle (potentially) sealed the fate of Protestants in Habsburg lands and the fate of Catholics in lands ruled by Protestant dynasties.

I also did read about certain parts of Austria becoming protestant but the source I found went beyond this and claimed Austria was likely to become a protestant state in the future and this research was based on form of facts, I will have to find the source out as I know I kept it because I keep all the History sources I come across.