Emasculated Prussia in the 19th Century?

[avernite]

Besides the Wittelsbachs had fairly large and wealthy holdings throughout history and what did they ever do with it? The Hohenzollerns were given a sandbox and a slice of the Baltic and they seized power by the throat.
The Wittelsbachs are a bunch of under achieving losers.

The Wittelsbachs in their prime tried too much everywhere, and lost.

The Hohenzollerns took a longer route to their prime, but when they got there they tried too much everywhere, and lost.


Anyhow... Prussia is probably getting the Rhine because noone else is a proper custodian - Bavaria is at least a little suspect, Hannover is British so everyone else wants them NOT there, a local power is too weak to hold France off, and I suspect the Netherlands are a mix of too scary to Britain if they ever become a major power and too suspect given their long tendency to swing between republicanism and monarchy (rather than the firm staunch monarchism of Prussia; plus they already got Belgium). Austria might've worked if they wanted it, but then if they wanted it they'd have kept Belgium instead.

 

[JackLumber]

The Wittelsbachs in their prime tried too much everywhere, and lost.

The Hohenzollerns took a longer route to their prime, but when they got there they tried too much everywhere, and lost.


Anyhow... Prussia is probably getting the Rhine because noone else is a proper custodian - Bavaria is at least a little suspect, Hannover is British so everyone else wants them NOT there, a local power is too weak to hold France off, and I suspect the Netherlands are a mix of too scary to Britain if they ever become a major power and too suspect given their long tendency to swing between republicanism and monarchy (rather than the firm staunch monarchism of Prussia; plus they already got Belgium). Austria might've worked if they wanted it, but then if they wanted it they'd have kept Belgium instead.

Prussians reached their prime and were the most powerful nation on the continent and and before falling away they had defeated every major land power on Europe at least once.
What had the Wittelsbachs ever done?

 

[Ciniad]

Prussians never were the most powerful nation on the continent as Prussia does not equal Germany.
and in the debate Wittelsbach against Hohenzollern the Hohenzollern lose in term of age and they cant even go back before 1030 whereas the Wittelsbach go back all the way to 842.

 

[Larus Marinus]

What had the Wittelsbachs ever done?

Just you wait, their payback for the humiliation at the hands of the saupreß will surely impact eventually.

Or it will amount to nothing eventually, like most things Wittelsbach.

 

[Karolus Rex]

The Wittelsbachs in their prime tried too much everywhere, and lost.

The Hohenzollerns took a longer route to their prime, but when they got there they tried too much everywhere, and lost.


Anyhow... Prussia is probably getting the Rhine because noone else is a proper custodian - Bavaria is at least a little suspect, Hannover is British so everyone else wants them NOT there, a local power is too weak to hold France off, and I suspect the Netherlands are a mix of too scary to Britain if they ever become a major power and too suspect given their long tendency to swing between republicanism and monarchy (rather than the firm staunch monarchism of Prussia; plus they already got Belgium). Austria might've worked if they wanted it, but then if they wanted it they'd have kept Belgium instead.

Austria would never get the Rhineland because of their support of France on the left bank of the Rhine, the fact that the Habsburg were given most of north and central Italy and most importantly of all because Russia said that they wanted Prussia on the Rhine and in Saxony in exchange for New East Prussia and for the Prussian support during the negotiations in Vienna.

 

[dcontreras]

Again, Prussian presence in Western Germany, Austrian withdraw from the Netherlands, and preference for control of "Italy" versus situating themselves in a position to be in control of and or influence Germany opens up the door for eventual unification of Germany under Prussian rule.

 

[JackLumber]

Prussians never were the most powerful nation on the continent as Prussia does not equal Germany.
and in the debate Wittelsbach against Hohenzollern the Hohenzollern lose in term of age and they cant even go back before 1030 whereas the Wittelsbach go back all the way to 842.

The German Empire was effectively Prussia and it's vassals and besides it was the Prussian army that did the heavy lifting in any conflict Germany was in.
Quality of years of quantity of years, in fact I'd argue being such an old dynasty and clearly in such a position of subordination is just salt in the wound.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Anyhow... Prussia is probably getting the Rhine because noone else is a proper custodian - Bavaria is at least a little suspect, Hannover is British so everyone else wants them NOT there, a local power is too weak to hold France off, and I suspect the Netherlands are a mix of too scary to Britain if they ever become a major power and too suspect given their long tendency to swing between republicanism and monarchy (rather than the firm staunch monarchism of Prussia; plus they already got Belgium). Austria might've worked if they wanted it, but then if they wanted it they'd have kept Belgium instead.

The obvious solution is Russian Rhineland, of course. They were part of the Coalition occupation force from 1815-1818, so what could go wrong?

 

[JackLumber]

The obvious solution is Russian Rhineland, of course. They were part of the Coalition occupation force from 1815-1818, so what could go wrong?

You know I would pay to see the British react to this

 

[avernite]

Prussians reached their prime and were the most powerful nation on the continent and and before falling away they had defeated every major land power on Europe at least once.
What had the Wittelsbachs ever done?

Given the whole family a decent title, rather than sticking it on just the one guy?

 

[JackLumber]

Given the whole family a decent title, rather than sticking it on just the one guy?

King of Romania isn't a decent title? The more you know.

 

[longsword14]

You know I would pay to see the British react to this

I would pay to see France and Austria react to this.

 

[avernite]

King of Romania isn't a decent title? The more you know.

There must've been about a dozen Dukes of Bavaria at some points, plus a couple PfalzGrafs and of course the counts of Holland-Hainaut.

 

[JackLumber]

There must've been about a dozen Dukes of Bavaria at some points, plus a couple PfalzGrafs and of course the counts of Holland-Hainaut.

Yes and what did they ever accomplish with those lands?

 

[Taloc13]

The obvious solution is Russian Rhineland, of course. They were part of the Coalition occupation force from 1815-1818, so what could go wrong?

You joke, but this isn't that far removed from the realm of plausibility. Peter III was the duke of Holstein at the same time as being Tsar of Russia. Since the Prussians have refused to take the Rhineland and Austria and Great Britain have no interest either, why not give it to the Russians? Make the Tsar the Lord Palatine of Rhineland. In fact, the Austrians could use this political capital to rescind the dissolution of the HRE and use this to gain support of the Russian delegation. Very improbable yes, but possible with some top-notch Bismarckesque diplomacy.

 

[Deleted member 92195]

The Wittelsbachs in their prime tried too much everywhere, and lost.

The Hohenzollerns took a longer route to their prime, but when they got there they tried too much everywhere, and lost.


Anyhow... Prussia is probably getting the Rhine because noone else is a proper custodian - Bavaria is at least a little suspect, Hannover is British so everyone else wants them NOT there, a local power is too weak to hold France off, and I suspect the Netherlands are a mix of too scary to Britain if they ever become a major power and too suspect given their long tendency to swing between republicanism and monarchy (rather than the firm staunch monarchism of Prussia; plus they already got Belgium). Austria might've worked if they wanted it, but then if they wanted it they'd have kept Belgium instead.

If I may add my favourite: The Habsburgs in their prime tried everywhere, won almost everywhere, defied change, and lost.

 

[JackLumber]

If I may add my favourite: The Habsburgs in their prime tried everywhere, won almost everywhere, defied change, and lost.

Everyone eventually fails, the key is what you get done in the mean time and as a Hohenzollern Fanboy I may talk trash about the Habsburgs but that's just normal german dualism rivalry stuff, it really doesn't mean I have any disrespect for them.
Unlike those disappointing Wittelsbachs

 

[Deleted member 97083]

You joke, but this isn't that far removed from the realm of plausibility. Peter III was the duke of Holstein at the same time as being Tsar of Russia. Since the Prussians have refused to take the Rhineland and Austria and Great Britain have no interest either, why not give it to the Russians? Make the Tsar the Lord Palatine of Rhineland. In fact, the Austrians could use this political capital to rescind the dissolution of the HRE and use this to gain support of the Russian delegation. Very improbable yes, but possible with some top-notch Bismarckesque diplomacy.

In the long term, can Russia use their Rhineland territory to expand into the German region?

 

[longsword14]

Everyone eventually fails, the key is what you get done in the mean time and as a Hohenzollern Fanboy I may talk trash about the Habsburgs but that's just normal german dualism rivalry stuff, it really doesn't mean I have any disrespect for them.
Unlike those disappointing Wittelsbachs

The Hohenzollerns had quite a bit of luck when it came to survival too, no matter how much people like to downplay the fact.
1. Berlin about to fall, the ruler of Russia dies and is replaced by an ardent Prussophile.
2. After getting his army torn to bits, it fell to some truly inspired work by men working independent of the crown to drag Prussia by the laces into some semblance of order.
Luck and unforeseeable circumstances are quite important you know. It is hard to say exactly how much of something's past were by its own deeds.

 

[JackLumber]

The Hohenzollerns had quite a bit of luck when it came to survival too, no matter how much people like to downplay the fact.
1. Berlin about to fall, the ruler of Russia dies and is replaced by an ardent Prussophile.
2. After getting his army torn to bits, it fell to some truly inspired work by men working independent of the crown to drag Prussia by the laces into some semblance of order.
Luck and unforeseeable circumstances are quite important you know. It is hard to say exactly how much of something's past were by its own deeds.

I don't recall ever saying they weren't lucky, the difference is when opportunity came a knocking they seized it,challenged the status quo and came out of it a great power and wittlesbach didn't, they went back to being a second rate German dynasty.