Elsab but not Lorraine: What If the Germans only take Alsace in 1871?

[Saphroneth]

Occurred to me when I ran into a description of Alsasce-Lorraine which was that it consisted of "A German speaking Protestant province and a French speaking Catholic province, and I'll let you guess which each thinks of when they talk about the region".

So... what if the Germans took Alsasce (i.e. the more German bit) and left the French Lorraine in 1871? Do things still get tense and irredentist?
(We can assume for now that the indemnity imposed on France was still the same.)

 

[funnyhat]

Most of Lorraine did remain French. Germany annexed the northern quarter of it (the department of the Moselle). Both Alsace and the Moselle were predominantly Catholic and German-speaking, with the francophone city of Metz being the main exception.

For France, it was losing territory that was the main issue, not so much its language/culture. Most of the propaganda over the next 40 years was centered on Alsace, incidentally.

 

[Alon]

The 1871 border passes very close to the language border. As Funnyhat notes, Metz was the main exception, and that was because it had iron deposits that Germany wanted.

 

[Matteo]

For France, it was losing territory that was the main issue, not so much its language/culture. Most of the propaganda over the next 40 years was centered on Alsace, incidentally.

No. Not territory but population was what mattered more. The alsacians and mosellans were considered as frenchmen by the rest of France and considered themselves as frenchmen.

That's why annexing these territories and populations was a tragic mistake that plagued Europe for 3 generations.

Had Prussia just demanded just huge reparations, there would probably not have been so much had blood between the 2 countries.

 

[Tibi088]

I read in various places the opinion that what France couldnt accept was the loss of prestige and the humilation. After 1870 they werent the grand nation anymore. Germany was bigger and stronger and the gap was rapidly increasing between them. Alsace was only the symbol of this and France would still be just as anti-german without it.

I for myself am not sure. Its true that France would still be treatened by Germany without Germany taking Alsace and i can understand that they didnt have a clearly stronger neighbour for centuries.

I think only taking Alsace would have less impact than lets say taking all that they took OTL but later in a deal giving back Metz. In this scenario Germany would only take Metz as a bargaining chip for later.

 

[Faeelin]

The 1871 border passes very close to the language border. As Funnyhat notes, Metz was the main exception, and that was because it had iron deposits that Germany wanted.

But it doesn't pass through the border of people who considered themselves Germans vs. Frenchmen, which it turns out matters more.

 

[Tanc49]

I read in various places the opinion that what France couldnt accept was the loss of prestige and the humilation. After 1870 they werent the grand nation anymore. Germany was bigger and stronger and the gap was rapidly increasing between them. Alsace was only the symbol of this and France would still be just as anti-german without it.

Not sure France would be as much anti-German without it. For example there wasn't such hate against the UK. I mean, there was hate against the Perfide Albion and all, that lasted until after WWII, but it wasn't as paroxystic as against Germany.

France was put in a quasi-protectorate, similar to Germany post-WWI with limitations on the armies, actual armies occupying French territory for several years after the war and the German government keeping a close eye on French foreign policy, for example the Tunisian scandal where Ferry was said to have asked "permission" of the Kaiser before establishing the Protectorate, almost broke his government. Germany also established a "most favoured nation" clause on French foreign trade, all those humiliations really drove the hate.

UK was the classic object of hate because of the past millenia but the main ennemy was Germany, no doubt about that, and that was because of the war.

 

[RavenMM]

But it doesn't pass through the border of people who considered themselves Germans vs. Frenchmen, which it turns out matters more.

If Germany kept possesing those lands, i bet nowadays they would feel german, too.

 

[Matteo]

That's highly probable they would end up feeling german but that's not sure.

Just consider Poland. Although living under prussian rule forone century and a half, many poles still felt polish.

You may object that they were a majority speaking but polish.

So just consider Ireland or Scotland. Language is not the only tool in forging identity and national counsciousness. It was indeed the drama of Europe and Germany that Germany could not accept this earlier than it did OTL, that is after 2 world wars and the almost utter destruction of Europe.

 

[RavenMM]

That's highly probable they would end up feeling german but that's not sure.

Just consider Poland. Although living under prussian rule forone century and a half, many poles still felt polish.

You may object that they were a majority speaking but polish.

So just consider Ireland or Scotland. Language is not the only tool in forging identity and national counsciousness. It was indeed the drama of Europe and Germany that Germany could not accept this earlier than it did OTL, that is after 2 world wars and the almost utter destruction of Europe.

Counter example: My grand grand parents came from the polish parts of prussia to th ruhr area. Their kid, my grandfather, couldn't even speak polish, only understand it. My father can't do either. Flood the area with german media and more german speakers, and everybody would have considered themself german. The feeling of nationality is not set in stone.

And regarding your last passage... well.. I don't agree at all with your view about germany and its history.

 

[Lampiao]

It's also interesting to point out that even the Germanic-speaking Alsatians felt more linked to their regional indentity than to a pan-germanic feeling and their only notion of a national belonging was towards France. Some important French personalities were Alsatian (e.g. Baron Haussman and Alfred Dreyfus), the French wouldn't easily accept a German Alsace.

 

[Saphroneth]

I'd like to avoid arguments about whether Germany was right to assume whatever or not.

About the only thing I'll note in terms of assimilation is that everyone felt Roman in the 4th century AD.



But aside from that - would letting the French keep Metz etc. result in a better situation? I find it hard to see how it could be worse, but would it be better or just unchanged?

(Heck, if it DOES turn out otherwise the same, does Metz change the dynamics of the opening of WW1?)

 

[Lampiao]

I'd like to avoid arguments about whether Germany was right to assume whatever or not.

About the only thing I'll note in terms of assimilation is that everyone felt Roman in the 4th century AD.



But aside from that - would letting the French keep Metz etc. result in a better situation? I find it hard to see how it could be worse, but would it be better or just unchanged?

(Heck, if it DOES turn out otherwise the same, does Metz change the dynamics of the opening of WW1?)

Well, they let the French keep Belfort, an important industrial center historically part of Alsace, and it didn't change the revanchisme.

 

[Monter]

A-L was annexed because:

1-It gave Berlin (Prussia) full control over the French border.
2-Baden and Bavaria would feel safer not bordering France.
3-It gave Germany not only it's rich minerals but also the neat natural defences in the vorges and the Metz fortress complex.

In the end linguistics played a small role in the annexation, so if Germany is going to annex something, it isn't going to annex just Alsace, but Moselle as well.

And Belfort only stayed French because they resisted the whole war.

 

[Alon]

It's also interesting to point out that even the Germanic-speaking Alsatians felt more linked to their regional indentity than to a pan-germanic feeling and their only notion of a national belonging was towards France. Some important French personalities were Alsatian (e.g. Baron Haussman and Alfred Dreyfus), the French wouldn't easily accept a German Alsace.

The fact that Dreyfus was from Alsace was one of the excuses France used to accuse him of being a German spy.

 

[Mikestone8]

(Heck, if it DOES turn out otherwise the same, does Metz change the dynamics of the opening of WW1?)

It means that the French armies attack from a more advanced position, which somewhat improves the Germans' chances of encircling them. Whether enough to make major difference is another matter.

 

[Saphroneth]

It means that the French armies attack from a more advanced position, which somewhat improves the Germans' chances of encircling them. Whether enough to make major difference is another matter.

Would the French all plunge forwards, though? I mean, the French did cover the Belgian border, they just didn't anticipate the scale of the wheel.

It might be a zero-sum, with the extra troops from retaining a city of that size and the slightly greater front line more or less evening out.

Might also mean that the French have a better defensive line and can hold forwards positions, might mean they hold onto Metz too long and lose out to encirclement of their forward positions.

Hard to tell.

 

[Circonflexe]

The fact that Dreyfus was from Alsace was one of the excuses France used to accuse him of being a German spy.

What. No, actually being from Alsace (and having *chosen* to flee to France) was actually one of the reasons to consider him as a true patriot.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

It's also interesting to point out that even the Germanic-speaking Alsatians felt more linked to their regional indentity than to a pan-germanic feeling and their only notion of a national belonging was towards France. Some important French personalities were Alsatian (e.g. Baron Haussman and Alfred Dreyfus), the French wouldn't easily accept a German Alsace.

Of course, pan-German feeling were limited in Elsaß after centuries of French rule. The special treatment ("Reichsland") it got in Imperial Germany did not help either.
Still, the complete re-integration of Elsaß into Germany would have been inevitable if it had not been lost to France again.
There would be no strong, lasting barrier between future generations on both sides of the Rhein.

 

[Kalan]

What. No, actually being from Alsace (and having *chosen* to flee to France) was actually one of the reasons to consider him as a true patriot.

You would expect that but his knowledge of the German language was used as one of the "proofs" of his guilt during trial before the military court.