Elsaß und Lothringen

What most surprises me is that the name of Talleyrand has not yet been invoked (IMHO, he and Metternich were the true architects of the Congress of Vienna).

Once France has gained a sit in its own right, I believe there is no way that France will be "punished": Talleyrand was able to sell almost to everybody the idea that France was a necessary mainstay for peace in Europe.

There is only one scenario that might reverse the trend: in February 1815 the Congress were somehow stalemated, and a sharp divide had been created between Russia and Prussia on one side and Great Britain, France and Austria on the other one. Then Napoleon went on his 100-days rampage, and after Waterloo all the powers were mostly interested in reaching a compromise.
Suppose that Napoleon does not leave Elba, or that he's intercepted en route. It is now quite possible that another general war starts, and if Russia and Prussia win (quite possible) I believe the subsequent peace will be much less favorable to France and Austria (IMHO, Great Britain will escape punishment even on the loosing side except for losing Hanover)
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
What most surprises me is that the name of Talleyrand has not yet been invoked (IMHO, he and Metternich were the true architects of the Congress of Vienna).

Once France has gained a sit in its own right, I believe there is no way that France will be "punished": Talleyrand was able to sell almost to everybody the idea that France was a necessary mainstay for peace in Europe.

There is only one scenario that might reverse the trend: in February 1815 the Congress were somehow stalemated, and a sharp divide had been created between Russia and Prussia on one side and Great Britain, France and Austria on the other one. Then Napoleon went on his 100-days rampage, and after Waterloo all the powers were mostly interested in reaching a compromise.
Suppose that Napoleon does not leave Elba, or that he's intercepted en route. It is now quite possible that another general war starts, and if Russia and Prussia win (quite possible) I believe the subsequent peace will be much less favorable to France and Austria (IMHO, Great Britain will escape punishment even on the loosing side except for losing Hanover)

I'll have to check my copy of Zamoyscki but IIRC the main points that caused troubles were solved before the 100 days.
 
I'll have to check my copy of Zamoyscki but IIRC the main points that caused troubles were solved before the 100 days.

Not to my recollection of the same book: Saxony was still up in the air, the Prussians were grumpy, the Murat question was yet to be solved and - if I remember right - the Papal States were still undecided and even the ultimate fate of the minor German states was still very fluid.
You may also want to check Napoleon's Master, by Lawday (a biography of Talleyrand)

IIRC, there was a kind of hyatus in December 1814/ January 1815 and the Congress of Vienna resumed in February.
 

Susano

Banned
The Congress was only to decide about Germany and Italy anyway, Frances borders had already been fixed in the 1814 Treaty of Paris. However, if the 100 Days get way worse, then that Treaty might get replaced, especially if it is a Russian-Prussian instead of an Anglo-Prussian army doing most of the work.
 
The Congress was only to decide about Germany and Italy anyway, Frances borders had already been fixed in the 1814 Treaty of Paris. However, if the 100 Days get way worse, then that Treaty might get replaced, especially if it is a Russian-Prussian instead of an Anglo-Prussian army doing most of the work.
I believe that after OTL 100 days the Dutch got some minor territories from France, so there is a precedent. Still losing all of Lorraine and the Alsace (I see no reason to split it like after the Franco-Prussian/German war) is a big step from losing small border areas. I expect that in that case France also loses at least Corsica and French Flanders.
 

Susano

Banned
I believe that after OTL 100 days the Dutch got some minor territories from France, so there is a precedent. Still losing all of Lorraine and the Alsace (I see no reason to split it like after the Franco-Prussian/German war) is a big step from losing small border areas. I expect that in that case France also loses at least Corsica and French Flanders.

Yeah, and the Bavarian Palatinate got some piece of the 1814 Alsace. But it was all very minor. Basically, the treaty remained intact. But its not impossible for it to get replaced, IMO.
 
Yeah, and the Bavarian Palatinate got some piece of the 1814 Alsace. But it was all very minor. Basically, the treaty remained intact. But its not impossible for it to get replaced, IMO.
True, but something big should have happened, like Napoleon winning at Waterloo, defeating another army (Austria?), occupying the southern (or all of the) Netherlands, going for the Rhine, other things, getting finally defeated and everybody being very angry and scared of France.
 

Susano

Banned
True, but something big should have happened, like Napoleon winning at Waterloo, defeating another army (Austria?), occupying the southern (or all of the) Netherlands, going for the Rhine, other things, getting finally defeated and everybody being very angry and scared of France.

Well at the time of Waterloo the Russian army was already on the march, but didnt arrive quickly enough. If Wellington and Blücher lose, then they will most likely do the work, giving them more influence. But yes, it would help if this drags out, to spread some panic through Europe. Some campaigning manouver in the Lower Countries, along the Rhine and in Central Germany, probably.
 
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