Elizabeth Tudor, Queen of Sweden

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Jan Olbracht, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    Swedish King Eric XIV was obsessed about Liz IOTL, but all his attempts to marry her failed ,and the very fact, that he tried to get her hand caused lots of troubles for him, for example it ruined his other marriage plans, like when he tried to get hand of Hessian princess, but at the same time he was sending letters to Elizabeth (still hoping to get her attention) convincing her, that his Hessian marriage plans are not serious. His letters were captured by Danes, who quickly made use of them, sending copies to Eric's would-be father-in-law and other German monarchs, ruining his reputation.
    So what if Tudor-Vasa marriage really happen? What should be changed to make it possible? Perhaps longer living Edward VI would let his sister marry fellow Protestant monarch?
    How would Liz fare as Queen consort of Sweden? Would she dominate her husband (thus eliminating influence of Joran Persson, who was power behind the throne IOTL). Would Eric's downfall be avoided? Perhaps his menthal health would not deterioriate as much as IOTL and thanks to Elizabeth some of his disastrous decisions would be avoided (like Sture family murder). Also Eric's conflict with younger brother should not be as bad as IOTL (Erik was jealous, that Johan married woman from Royal house, while his own attempts to marry woman of royal blood failed).
     
  2. Swedish luck Active Member

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    I thought about this myself actually because this is really interesting because of that both Sweden and England both have interest in the north sea and Baltic. personally, I think Liz could have been great for Sweden because it would make it in England's interest to have Sweden control the straight of Oresund instead of Denmark an enemy of Sweden. both Swedish and English interest would change Sweden would probably rather spend its resources to take today's southern Sweden and Norway to make it easier for England and Sweden to cooperate instead of spending most of its resources to take Estonia and other parts of the Baltics IOTL .whilst England would want Sweden to control all or part of Oresund to get lower tolls and thus strengthen their trade in the Baltics and the north sea. for the conflict whit, his younger brothers might still happen as john largely conquered parts of Estonia on his own and him being married to a polish princess will make him a serious threat to Erik reign. Erik's mental health will probably be better as he recovered IOTL but was still deposed. the marriage is very important because of what England could do if they joined or support Sweden in its war against Denmark) which could make Sweden win the war as they lost IOTL.
     
  3. FranzAncheNo Citizen of the Republic of Pistoia

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    Virginia wouldn't be called so.
     
  4. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    Speaking of the New World, however, the fate of New Sweden will be interesting.
     
  5. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

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    I would think that there'd have to be some finagling on their part with their respective nobles. English lords weren't super keen on a medeling foreign King as i understood it, and i would think the swedes would feel similarly. Perhaps they are only recognized as consorts in eachother's respective realms, though that kinda kicks the bucket down the line to any kids
     
  6. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    If the POD is a healthier Edward that may either not be an issue or not become ome until its too late. When Elizabeth might be marrying Erik shes still behind Mary as well as any of Edward's issue. If Parliament could tolerate Philip of Spain I dont see why they wouldnt tolerate to Protestant Erik as kimg in name only if it came to that.
     
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  7. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    It might. Just not after the Virgin Queen (rather a sort of TTL Maryland - i.e. a Catholic colony) named after the Virgin, perhaps?
     
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  8. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    TBF, the English had had a foreign king-consort already, so beyond circumscribing just what Erik could or couldn't do with England/Elizabeth - perhaps he isn't allowed to take Elizabeth out of the country, or some such - they will pucker up. They'd probably remember Mary and Calais, so they'd want to avoid a repeat of such a thing. Probably a clause saying that England's not responsible for Sweden's wars and vice versa

    As to the Swedes, if Liz has a *calming influence on Erik, as @Jan Olbracht suggests, and manages to persuade him out of the Sture murders or the like, she might very well be regarded as better than "Kate Crackernuts" Mansdotter (no offense to Karin, I like her a lot. She's a nice change from the ambitious socially climbing mistresses who become wives). Plus, it gives Sweden an ally (something that Erik's OTL marriage didn't do) which is useful.

    Presumably, with regards to kids, they will attempt to split the realms. It's not like this England-Scotland or even England-France or England-Netherlands PU we're talking about. There's not even a shared border, and in both cases, there's a bad history of what happens when the king's not present (the Vasas have their throne because of an absent king; England had the WotR, and before that, the Barons' Wars, where the monarch was weak/absent and some people...got ideas)
     
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  9. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    Karin Mansdottir was nail in Erik's coffin-marriage with low born girl destroyed King's reputation (which was heavy damaged at this point already).
    Also with Erik not being so bitter about his failed marriage attempts ITTL and without Jöran Persson's promptings he should have better relations with Johan ,especially considering the fact, that IOTL, when Johan was imprisoned (which should be avoided ITTL) Elizabeth was concerned about his fate (Liz knew Johan, they met when Johan was Erik's envoy in England) and was sending letters to Erik, asking about Johan and his wife. That way she propably saved his life, because Erik, who still hoped for Elizabeth's hand, didn't want to ruin his chances killing Johan.
     
  10. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    When would Erik-Liz get together though? Erik was a "suitor" (as in the marriage was actually being discussed) in Edward VI's reign (around the end of the 1540s IIRC) as well as twice (in 1554 and 1556, during Mary's reign), 1559 (when he actually was on the point of going to England when his dad died) and then in 1560 again.

    So if they marry in say, 1549/1550 (when both are 16/17yo) it is going to be a different dynamic to if they marry in 1560.
     
  11. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    If longer living E6 is POD I'd assume they should marry during OTL Mary I's reign, so I'd say 1556.
     
  12. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

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    Actually it probably be better for it to happen earlier, so as to avoid the Seymour incident. Both for Liz's personal sake (she was definitely sexually harassed, and likely abused), but also politically it raised suspicions about her
     
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  13. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    So 1550?
     
  14. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    If Edward still dies before Mary but after Liz is married to Erik English crown still goes to Mary, who is in England when Eddie dies. During Mary's reign Anglo-Swedish relations would not be warm. After Mary England gets another foreigner as King-consort, this time Protestant one and Queen who is English, but can't be on London and Stockholm at the same time, and hostile Denmark-Norway on the way would not make their rule easy.
     
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  15. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

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    Basically yeah. Erik begins his courting in '49 and then they marry the next year.

    Then things depend on whether or not edward lives longer, and whether his succession plans might play out differently. unlikely, given that it would be hard for him to exclude just Mary on the basis of catholicism alone. Protestantism was still young and weak in England. However, with Elizabeth married to a proper protestant he may be able to any 2nd or 3rd sons she may have as a back up to Jane's heirs
     
  16. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Well Edward can use a lot of tricks for preventing Mary’s succession: limiting the succession to the males (aka sons of Mary, Elizabeth, Frances (Brandon), Jane, Katherine, Mary (Grey) and Margaret (Clifford) who with Mary still unmarried will exclude her), restoring Elizabeth as full princess (aka recognizing Henry VIII’s wedding to Anne Boleyn as valid), killing off Mary for high treason (if Edward want take this path finding something against Mary will be pretty simple using religion), killing Mary naturally (with poison or arranging some accident).
    Edward VI was engaged to Elisabeth of France (OTL third wife of Philip II of Spain) so the Spanish’s reaction to Mary’s death will not be an insurmountable trouble for him .
     
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  17. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    In the words of Natalie Portman as Anne Boleyn "it's a long way from bended knee to altar steps". As to killing Mary, Edward (or his advisors) would be stupid to do so. She's far better connected than either he or Elizabeth (so the minute she so much as coughs, there's going to be whispers of poison), and I'm not sure France would be willing to risk a war with Spain and the HRE (still united in the person of Karl V - Mary's cousin) for the sake of England.
     
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  18. isabella Well-Known Member

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    France was already more or less always in war against Austria&Spain...
    The wedding between Edward and Elizabeth was something who both Henry II and Edward VI really wanted (the Pope threatened the King of France with interdiction if he had engaged/married his daughter to the heretic King of England and Henry II confirmed the engagement) so is pretty likely who the wedding will go ahead.
    Plus you are sure who Karl V will go to war with England (and possibly France and the Schmalkaldic league) over his already dead cousin? I have a lot of doubt about it as Mary was English (not Spanish like her mother) and Karl had already abandoned Mary (and Katherine) more than once when politics suited it. Edward VI is an indisputably legitimate King and Mary is his subject for birth
     
  19. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Also true. I do reiterate my statement about if Mary has an unseasonal cough though
     
  20. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. But Spain will still be unable to do anything more than talking...
    If he try to invade England, you can be sure who France and the German Protestant princes will use the opportunity for trying to get personal advantages (and maybe the Ottomans also)...
    Karl has way too much enemies everywhere for conceding himself the luxury of a revenge for his cousins’ eventual death (who will be either for high treason - aka none of his business - or apparently natural)