Elizabeth of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel infertile - no more Habsburgs!!!

Susano

Banned
Reading your last posts, I don't see anything to add...although the different Italy will presumably alter alliance structures in the upcoming Wars of Many Places' Successions, it's hard to predict exactly how before you lay out those situations...
Thats already concldued (as said I had already planned an Italian War, I merely turned it into a succession war to fit with the theme). As one consequence, Genoa and Venice will fight against Austria, and Piedmont will always fight on the other side than Sicily (hence when Sicily switches, so does Piedmont).

We need a chart. Something like:

------------ Allied Candidate ----- French Candidiate

England Frederick Hohenstaufen[1] James Stuart


[1] Also king of Prussia

Right. Thats easily done. Oh, btw, no Prussian Kingdom (so far ITTL), because there was no War of the Spanish Succession.

To the left the candidate of the Spanish-British camp, to the right the canddiate of the Saxon-French camp.

Austria: (Son of)Joseph Ferdinand of Spain and Bavaria --- August II of Saxony and Poland
France: Philip IV of Sicily and Naples (Philip X as King of France) --- Duke Philip II of France (obviously, also Philip X as King of France ;) )
Poland: Peter Romanov (IOTL Tsar Peter II of Russia), nephew of (ITTL) Tsar Peter II of Russia --- August II of Saxony and Poland (also the Franco-Saxon claimant in Austria)
Sweden: Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp --- Frederick of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (no OTL equivalent, name may yet vary to avoid name confusions)
Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Adolph Frederick III of Mecklenburg-Strelitz --- Frederick of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (same as the Swedish claimant)
Great Britain (if it can be called a succession war): Frederick of Brandenburg and Prussia --- James Stuart
Netherlands (Civil War): William IV of Orange --- the Estates-General (without Stadholder)

But, really, that war will come later. We cant have that war if we dont have the build up ;) So, the first part will be the avoided war of the Spanish Succession and the short War of the Spanish partition that ensures Flanders and Sicily+Naples becoem secundogenitures. Any ideas on that? If not, Ill try to begin wirting something tomorrow, but alas, what to write about a war that did not happen? :p
 

Susano

Banned
Nearly on Page 3! Seems like the initial enthusasim is gone:rolleyes:

Okay, coupla things:

1) Tuscany! The Collective still hasnt raised opinions on where it should go. As said earlier, choices are the Palatinate (if we alter OTL in that John William of teh Palatinate and his Medici wife have a son) for additional Wittelsbach-weird-personal-unions-coolness or Sicily-Naples via the Farnese (Duchy of Parma) heritage if John William has no son, for a near-unified Italy. As said I prefer the former, but I want to hear opinions...

2) The French Revolution. Its not going to work. That is, we can have a revolution, it just wont last any long. IOTL, the revolution happened in peacetime, so when the monarchies did invade, the new Republic had despite its disorgansiation plenty of time to raise defenses (and then go into the offensive). Here, you will have royalist regiments at the front AND the shocked Europe trying to oust the Republicans. Hence, first the Republic will endure the wave of the returning royalist regiments and immidatly afterward sthe wave of foreign troops. I have a hard time seeing it last against those odds.

Of course, we still could have it (and I say we should), we jhust hav eto realsie it will falter after six years or so. That alone is cool enough (and the TL runs on coolness fuel, after all ;) ): Imagine the chaos after some hasty compromises to fight the Republicans, and added to taht the chaos of the Republican defeat. Its like the Congress of Vienna additionally burdened by still open questions of succession :D

3) The Mantovian succession. Screw it, that is delayed so that it becomes part of the War of Everywhere Sucession, and the 1720s War in Italy is for other reasons. After all, we DO want to bundle a smany successionc risises as possible in that war :D
 
Nearly on Page 3! Seems like the initial enthusasim is gone:rolleyes:

Okay, coupla things:

1) Tuscany! The Collective still hasnt raised opinions on where it should go. As said earlier, choices are the Palatinate (if we alter OTL in that John William of teh Palatinate and his Medici wife have a son) for additional Wittelsbach-weird-personal-unions-coolness or Sicily-Naples via the Farnese (Duchy of Parma) heritage if John William has no son, for a near-unified Italy. As said I prefer the former, but I want to hear opinions...

2) The French Revolution. Its not going to work. That is, we can have a revolution, it just wont last any long. IOTL, the revolution happened in peacetime, so when the monarchies did invade, the new Republic had despite its disorgansiation plenty of time to raise defenses (and then go into the offensive). Here, you will have royalist regiments at the front AND the shocked Europe trying to oust the Republicans. Hence, first the Republic will endure the wave of the returning royalist regiments and immidatly afterward sthe wave of foreign troops. I have a hard time seeing it last against those odds.

Of course, we still could have it (and I say we should), we jhust hav eto realsie it will falter after six years or so. That alone is cool enough (and the TL runs on coolness fuel, after all ;) ): Imagine the chaos after some hasty compromises to fight the Republicans, and added to taht the chaos of the Republican defeat. Its like the Congress of Vienna additionally burdened by still open questions of succession :D

3) The Mantovian succession. Screw it, that is delayed so that it becomes part of the War of Everywhere Sucession, and the 1720s War in Italy is for other reasons. After all, we DO want to bundle a smany successionc risises as possible in that war :D

1) Wittelsbach, definitely. Personal unions for everyone!

2) Keep it in, the French need their quota of peasant revolts, after all. But I agree they'd go down a lot faster.

3) Mantovian... is that the word for Mantuan, or, um, where?
 
1) Tuscany! The Collective still hasnt raised opinions on where it should go. As said earlier, choices are the Palatinate (if we alter OTL in that John William of teh Palatinate and his Medici wife have a son) for additional Wittelsbach-weird-personal-unions-coolness or Sicily-Naples via the Farnese (Duchy of Parma) heritage if John William has no son, for a near-unified Italy. As said I prefer the former, but I want to hear opinions...

I'm always for an earlier Italian unification...;)

3) The Mantovian succession. Screw it, that is delayed so that it becomes part of the War of Everywhere Sucession, and the 1720s War in Italy is for other reasons. After all, we DO want to bundle a smany successionc risises as possible in that war :D

Well, you can just make Charles IV being succeded by the Guastalla branch of the Gonzaga (as it should be under Salic Law) and make this branch still die out as IOTL. Then you would have succession problems later. The last of them, Giuseppe, had mental problems and died without children in 1746.
 

Susano

Banned
3) Mantovian... is that the word for Mantuan, or, um, where?

Yes. Im not entirely sure what word is corretc in English, Ive seen both, though Wiki and Google seem both to prefer Mantuan. Okay, Ill keep Mantuan then ;)

Well, you can just make Charles IV being succeded by the Guastalla branch of the Gonzaga (as it should be under Salic Law) and make this branch still die out as IOTL. Then you would have succession problems later. The last of them, Giuseppe, had mental problems and died without children in 1746.
Yes, but Lorraine might contest ownership of Montferrat then. I think we should instead butterfly Charles IV having a legitimite son (Charles V), who then dies just on time, 1736 or 1737, without any children, of course.
 
Yes, but Lorraine might contest ownership of Montferrat then. I think we should instead butterfly Charles IV having a legitimite son (Charles V), who then dies just on time, 1736 or 1737, without any children, of course.

But it would be even better: the war of Mantuan and Montferrat Succession!:D
 
But it would be even better: the war of Mantuan and Montferrat Succession!:D

Except it's already the War of the Austrian, French, Polish, Swedish, Mecklenburg-Schwerein, British, and Dutch Successions.

...We really need a name... they'd probably just call it the Eight Years War or whatever.
 

Susano

Banned
But it would be even better: the war of Mantuan and Montferrat Succession!:D

Yeah, it just would be too early :p
We want to bundle succession wars, after all :p

The War of the Everywhere Succession hence:

Austria: (Son of)Joseph Ferdinand of Spain and Bavaria --- August II of Saxony and Poland
France: Philip IV of Sicily and Naples (Philip X as King of France) --- Duke Philip II of Orleans (obviously, also Philip X as King of France )
Poland: Peter Romanov (IOTL Tsar Peter II of Russia), nephew of (ITTL) Tsar Peter II of Russia --- August II of Saxony and Poland (also the Franco-Saxon claimant in Austria)
Sweden: Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp --- Frederick of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (no OTL equivalent, name may yet vary to avoid name confusions)
Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Adolph Frederick III of Mecklenburg-Strelitz --- Frederick of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (same as the Swedish claimant)
Mantua: Unclear sides, several claimants (Francis of Lorraine, both claimants to the throne of Austria, Venice and Milan [Sicily-naples] trying to conquer it)
Montferrat: Francis of Lorraine (IOTL Holy Roman Emperor) --- Joseph of Guestella
Great Britain (if it can be called a succession war): Frederick of Brandenburg and Prussia --- James Stuart
Netherlands (Civil War): William IV of Orange --- the Estates-General (without Stadholder)

Except it's already the War of the Austrian, French, Polish, Swedish, Mecklenburg-Schwerein, British, and Dutch Successions.

...We really need a name... they'd probably just call it the Eight Years War or whatever.
Thats a possibiliy. Though War of the Octuple Succession or War of the European Successions, or even War of teh Several Successions work, too.
 
Maybe a suggestion about Mantua: make Charles have a daughter, and marry her to the Guastalla branch. It would keep Montferrat connected to Mantua time enough to have the war on time. It would be even better if the daughter is illegitimate.
 

Susano

Banned
Maybe a suggestion about Mantua: make Charles have a daughter, and marry her to the Guastalla branch. It would keep Montferrat connected to Mantua time enough to have the war on time. It would be even better if the daughter is illegitimate.

If she is illegitimate its too easy to discount her (besides, he already did have sveeral illegitimate daughters, and two illegitimate sons, too, whod take precedence if an illegitimate child were to suceed), if shes legitimate, Lorraine loses its claim... except if she and the Duke Guastella have no children and die in time, of course...
 
Yeah, it just would be too early :p
We want to bundle succession wars, after all :p

The War of the Everywhere Succession hence:

Austria: (Son of)Joseph Ferdinand of Spain and Bavaria --- August II of Saxony and Poland
France: Philip IV of Sicily and Naples (Philip X as King of France) --- Duke Philip II of Orleans (obviously, also Philip X as King of France )
Poland: Peter Romanov (IOTL Tsar Peter II of Russia), nephew of (ITTL) Tsar Peter II of Russia --- August II of Saxony and Poland (also the Franco-Saxon claimant in Austria)
Sweden: Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp --- Frederick of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (no OTL equivalent, name may yet vary to avoid name confusions)
Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Adolph Frederick III of Mecklenburg-Strelitz --- Frederick of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (same as the Swedish claimant)
Mantua: Unclear sides, several claimants (Francis of Lorraine, both claimants to the throne of Austria, Venice and Milan [Sicily-naples] trying to conquer it)
Montferrat: Francis of Lorraine (IOTL Holy Roman Emperor) --- Joseph of Guestella
Great Britain (if it can be called a succession war): Frederick of Brandenburg and Prussia --- James Stuart
Netherlands (Civil War): William IV of Orange --- the Estates-General (without Stadholder)

It seems nice!:p

Now we just need to find succession troubles for Denmark, Spain and Portugal, and then the chaos will be complete (or almost).:D
 

Susano

Banned
Ive decided tro essurect this thread. Its good to have discussion about the segments Ive atcualyl written in the Royal Knockout thread proper, but totalyl new ideas could clutte rthe thread.

Faeelin just reminded me of something:
22:43:55: ya know, the prussians do have a claim to holland
...Goddamn, and yes I even DID know that, I just completly forgot!
To clarify, Elector Frederick III. of Brandenburg (IOTL King Frederick I. in Prussia) was married with to William III's aunt. Their son Frederick William (the guy whose wife will becoem Queen of England ITTL) continues the line. By proximity of blood, thats a better claim than the Frisian Nassau line has (though they have the better claim by stricteness of salic law). That is how Brandenburg got the title Souvereign prince of Orange and the country of Lingen... ah, nevermind the confusing details :p

Aaaanyways, were going to have a Dutch Civil War, so that fact needs to be mentioned, and if only why the claim is not pursued... but maybe it is... so, well, as you see, completly new idea, hence this thread ;)
 
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