Elizabeth: Lancastrian Princess, Yorkist Queen - and her world

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BlueFlowwer

We are talking about the same Edward IV who refused to lift a finger to help Mary of Burgundy when Charles the Bold died, despite Margaret's pleas? Who abandoned his French campaigns when Louis shook a sack full of gold under his nose? The same Edward who refused to pay his daughter Anne a dowry at her engagement to Philip of Burgundy? Who never paid Margaret's dowry in total?

Yes, I'm sure he will defend both Burgundy and Brittany. And I wouldn't have made a sound if Anne of Brittany had married the Prince of Wales. But a second son? For her and Mary? The richest heirres of her time? Why would Charles the Bold give up his most valuable prize to a second son without a realm? Why on earth would the Burgundian estates consent to that match? Better to go with Nicholas of Lorraine if he survives.

Anne is better matched with Rene of Chalon, the Prince of Orange or even John of Albret if he does not marry Catherine of Navarre.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

BlueFlowwer said:
We are talking about the same Edward IV who refused to lift a finger to help Mary of Burgundy when Charles the Bold died, despite Margaret's pleas? Who abandoned his French campaigns when Louis shook a sack full of gold under his nose? The same Edward who refused to pay his daughter Anne a dowry at her engagement to Philip of Burgundy? Who never paid Margaret's dowry in total?

Yes, I'm sure he will defend both Burgundy and Brittany. And I wouldn't have made a sound if Anne of Brittany had married the Prince of Wales. But a second son? For her and Mary? The richest heirres of her time? Why would Charles the Bold give up his most valuable prize to a second son without a realm? Why on earth would the Burgundian estates consent to that match? Better to go with Nicholas of Lorraine if he survives.

Anne is better matched with Rene of Chalon, the Prince of Orange or even John of Albret if he does not marry Catherine of Navarre.
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Or Ferdinand of Aragon for Mary of Burgundy if Charles of Viana survives.
 

isabella

BlueFlowwer said:
We are talking about the same Edward IV who refused to lift a finger to help Mary of Burgundy when Charles the Bold died, despite Margaret's pleas? Who abandoned his French campaigns when Louis shook a sack full of gold under his nose? The same Edward who refused to pay his daughter Anne a dowry at her engagement to Philip of Burgundy? Who never paid Margaret's dowry in total?

Yes, I'm sure he will defend both Burgundy and Brittany. And I wouldn't have made a sound if Anne of Brittany had married the Prince of Wales. But a second son? For her and Mary? The richest heirres of her time? Why would Charles the Bold give up his most valuable prize to a second son without a realm? Why on earth would the Burgundian estates consent to that match? Better to go with Nicholas of Lorraine if he survives.

Anne is better matched with Rene of Chalon, the Prince of Orange or even John of Albret if he does not marry Catherine of Navarre.
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Not the same Edward, naturally. ATL Edward is different and I have already told you. (In OTL Edward do not helped Mary as he wanted to preserve his French pension and Elizabeth’s engagement to the Dauphin and had not a son old enough to marry in Burgundy. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN OTL EDWARD WAS ONLY DOING WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS THE BEST FOR HIMSELF AND ENGLAND). Mary of Burgundy and Anne of Brittany NEED to marry younger sons of a powerful ruler, able to help them to protect their lands AND preserve their independence. I have already said who here Louis XI will not be able to bought off ATL Edward out of the anti-French alliance. Charles and Burgundian Estates WANT a strong and independent Burgundy. Plus here Margaret’s dowry will NOT be unpaid AND both Richard and John will still have their own English estates. Nicholas of Anjou will still die as OTL but here a match with Mary will NOT be taken in consideration as she is already engaged. John d’Albret will marry Catherine of Navarre.
kasumigenx said:
Or Ferdinand of Aragon for Mary of Burgundy if Charles of Viana survives.
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Charles of Viana will die as OTL and explain me what is the difference between Ferdinand, second son of the King of Aragon or Frederick, second son of the King of Naples, both without any kingdom of his own and Richard, Duke of York, second son of the King of England?
Ferdinand will be King of Aragon AND will marry Isabella of Castile (who ATL will NOT have any reason for being angry with an Edward IV who was NEVER proposed as her husband).

EDIT: plus in OTL at least one of the younger brothers of Edward IV was taken in consideration as husband for Mary of Burgundy (so I can not see a valid reason for which Edward’s second son WOULD NOT BE considered a good enough match for Mary)
 
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kasumigenx

kasumigenx

isabella said:
Not the same Edward, naturally. ATL Edward is different and I have already told you. (In OTL Edward do not helped Mary as he wanted to preserve his French pension and Elizabeth’s engagement to the Dauphin and had not a son old enough to marry in Burgundy. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN OTL EDWARD WAS ONLY DOING WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS THE BEST FOR HIMSELF AND ENGLAND). Mary of Burgundy and Anne of Brittany NEED to marry younger sons of a powerful ruler, able to help them to protect their lands AND preserve their independence. I have already said who here Louis XI will not be able to bought off ATL Edward out of the anti-French alliance. Charles and Burgundian Estates WANT a strong and independent Burgundy. Plus here Margaret’s dowry will NOT be unpaid AND both Richard and John will still have their own English estates. Nicholas of Anjou will still die as OTL but here a match with Mary will NOT be taken in consideration as she is already engaged. John d’Albret will marry Catherine of Navarre.

Charles of Viana will die as OTL and explain me what is the difference between Ferdinand, second son of the King of Aragon or Frederick, second son of the King of Naples, both without any kingdom of his own and Richard, Duke of York, second son of the King of England?
Ferdinand will be King of Aragon AND will marry Isabella of Castile (who ATL will NOT have any reason for being angry with an Edward IV who was NEVER proposed as her husband).
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indeed.
 
Elizabeth, Queen of England about the end of the War of the Roses.
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    • isabella

    “Jasper, I do not owe any loyalty to your half-brother or his son as, whatever blood we share, I married Edward and my loyalty MUST BE reserves to my husband and my sons. Still, I am my father’s daughter and will not let Edward destroys the supporters of the Lancasters. Now who his son is dead Henry is beyond any help and Marguerite’s fate will depend from her French relatives but that do not mean who the Lancastrians are outlaws, I will NEVER consent to that and Edward know it well. What I want NOW is peace for England, now who we can not have any doubt about who is the rightful ruler as my son, the Prince of Wales is the indisputable heir of both the Lancastrian and Yorkist branches of the Plantagenets. What you, and your nephew Henry can do NOW is accepting that, swearing loyalty to my husband and son and leave Henry to his fate. Edward will restore your Earldom of Pembroke and your nephew’s Richmond. I will find a suitable bride to your nephew and he will be included among my Edward’s companions. Do not worry, you will not need to explain to Margaret for what reason her son must marry a Yorkist. I am thinking to another bride for for him... My youngest sister Katherine need an husband and I think Margaret will not have anything against such match” Elizabeth of Bedford, Queen of England to Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke from “The Rose of England“ a play on Elizabeth’s life
     
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    • isabella

    The Professor said:
    Intriguing update.
    Can I be reminded what's happened or will happen with the Staffords? I.e. the other Margaret Beaufort's line :biggrin:
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    For now I have NOT named them at all... that post was quite forward in the time respect my previous one, who was a short bio of Elizabeth’s first years (so before she became Queen). Henry Stafford is alive and perfectly fine, simply ATL he was NEVER married/engaged to Katherine Woodville (aka Elizabet’s youngest half-sister) who here will simply become daughter-in-law of the other Margaret Beaufort. I do not know yet who will be Stafford‘s wife ATL but surely someone better for him, while Katherine will be more appreciated by her ATL in-laws.
    The Woodville/Rivers in ATL are in a totally different position than OTL thanks to Elizabeth. Jacquetta’s estates, who are her dower, are hers for life only but here they will revert to Elizabeth who has already inherited (most of ) her father’s remaining estates and so her half-siblings are in a better position than OTL (and their parents much less loyal to Marguerite than OTL)
     
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    The Professor

    The Professor

    isabella said:
    That can work... Herbert need a title but Edward here will not issue any attainder against the Tudors or Essex so their titles are out of question...
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    Yeah. I did a quick search but couldn't find anything he had a family link to that was either attaindered or in abeyance.
     

    isabella

    The Professor said:
    Yeah. I did a quick search but couldn't find anything he had a family link to that was either attaindered or in abeyance.
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    Well new title will be good as his son will still marry one of Elizabeth’s sisters (but likely NOT his OTL wife... I need to work on the list of Woodvilles and their weddings...
     
    Woodvilles of Rivers tree
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    • isabella

    Richard Woodville, Earl Rivers (b. 1405) married Jacquetta of Luxembourg (b. 1415/6) still work-in-progress)
    1. Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers (b. 1438) married Elizabeth Scales, Baroness Scales (b. 1436) as second husband
    2. Richard Woodville (1439-1441)
    3. Jacquetta Woodville (1440)
    4. Lewis Woodville (1441-1446)
    5. Richard Woodville (b. 1442)
    6. John Woodville (b. 1444) married Catherine Neville, Dowager Duchess of Norfolk (b. 1400)
    7. Jacquetta Woodville (b. 1446) married Sir John Grey of Grosby (b. 1432), heir of Elizabeth Ferrers, Baroness Ferrers of Grosby
    8. Anne Woodville (b. 1447) married William Bourchier, Earl of Essex (b. 1526) as second wife
    9. Mary Woodville (b. 1449) married Antony Grey, Earl of Kent (b. 1446)
    10. John Woodville (1451-1452)
    11. Lionel Woodville, Bishop of Salisbury (b. 1453)
    12. Margaret Woodville (b. 1454) married William Herbert, Earl of Monmouth (b. 1451)
    13. Eleanor Jane Woodville (b. 1456) married Thomas Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel (b. 1450)
    14. Edward Woodville (b. 1457)
    15. Katherine Woodville (b. 1458) married Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond and Pembroke (b. 1457)
     
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    • isabella

    curlyhairedhippie said:
    Why exactly is huntington out of the question? Wasn't William Herbert created earl of Huntington IOTL?
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    The Professor said:
    No his son William was when giving up Pembroke to the crown. At that time Huntingdon was available.
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    FalconHonour said:
    A new one works. Or else Oxford, if the De Veres are attainted for being Lancastrian as OTL?
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    Oxford also is out of question. Leading Lancastrians will NOT be fully attainted here (at least NOT simply for being Lancastrian) after Edward’s takeover and that take away any chances of new assignations of Richmond (who belong to Henry Tudor, inherited from his father), Pembroke (who belong to Jasper Tudor), Huntington (who belong to Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter), Northumberland (who belong to Henry Percy) and Devon (who will stay with the Courtenays). ATL Edward IV is already married to a Lancastrian who will do her best for protecting some of the leading men of the other side and that, plus discussions about the wedding of the Prince of Wales, plus Edward’s refusal to consenting to matches between his brother and Warwick’s daughters will be the cause of Warwick’s (and George’s) ATL rebellion.
    That do not mean who Edward IV will NOT make use of attainders as Clifford, Somerset, Warwick, his brother Montagu and George of Clarence will be all subject to that
     
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    isabella

    I need good wives for both Richard of Gloucester and Buckingham...
    I guess who Buckingham can marry either Anne Holland (six years younger than him) or Anne Neville (one year younger) but I do not know about Gloucester, maybe Margaret or Mary of Scotland (as her second husband)? Richard would still receive Middleham and the northern estates of the Nevilles as that lands will be at disposal of Edward after the attainders of Warwick and Montague
     
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