Elizabeth I has a brother

WI Anne Boleyn gives birth to a son after she has Elizabeth? Who would succeed Henry VIII? anne lives so no later wives but how does that affect Henry's religious views? His alst wife was an influence on him and now this is absent.

thoughts?
 
WI Anne Boleyn gives birth to a son after she has Elizabeth? Who would succeed Henry VIII? anne lives so no later wives but how does that affect Henry's religious views? His alst wife was an influence on him and now this is absent.

thoughts?

The son would succeed. There are some major changes here.

No Union with Scotland, meaning no British Empire, probably a smaller English one. No James as king of England means no Ulster plantation, far less NI troubles today. Should the Tudors continue in the same path, less chance of no Civil War and no Oliver Cromwell.

The butterflies could go on! The French could dominate the world! :eek:
 
No Union with Scotland, meaning no British Empire, probably a smaller English one. No James as king of England means no Ulster plantation, far less NI troubles today. Should the Tudors continue in the same path, less chance of no Civil War and no Oliver Cromwell.

But Liz got involved in Ireland so it's possible her brother would do it either and his handling of situation could go any which way.
 
The Tudors were well on their way to absolutism. I think that if Henry VIII had a healthy male heir this would almost certainly lead to English absolutism. This absolutist Tudor Dynasty could end up forcefully uniting the British Isles. Perhaps the final piece of dominating Parliament (and the British Isles) is creating a new Empire (Kingdom?) of Britain, where the English Parliament is just a regional parliament.
 
The Tudors were well on their way to absolutism. I think that if Henry VIII had a healthy male heir this would almost certainly lead to English absolutism.
You know what that means? English Revolution! :D :cool:

This absolutist Tudor Dynasty could end up forcefully uniting the British Isles. Perhaps the final piece of dominating Parliament (and the British Isles) is creating a new Empire (Kingdom?) of Britain, where the English Parliament is just a regional parliament.
That's a pretty big leap to make.
 
Perhaps the situation created by the birth of a healthy male heir of Henry VIII might end up causing the early death or removal from power of the Scottish Stuarts? Maybe he finds a reason to invade Scotland, and deposes Queen Mary? Perhaps, they might get married (even though they're first cousins. Eugh)? Maybe the Queen of Scots suffers from an affliction, and it kills her, before she got pregnant with James VI?
 
But Liz got involved in Ireland so it's possible her brother would do it either and his handling of situation could go any which way.

He would be King before Elizabeth became King. Either way, James VI and I decision to settle Scots in Ulster would be butterflied away.
037771 said:
I would have thought that the huge amount of butterflies could make the size issue go either way- of course no "British" though.
No Scots in the English Army would change the North American war with France. If you change the North American War, do you butterfly the American revolution? If so do you butterfly the French Revolution? If the Tudors decend into absolutism then do you have an English revolution? I just cant see a larger Empire than OTL British Empire though for any of the Great Powers.
Matthais Corvinus said:
The Tudors were well on their way to absolutism. I think that if Henry VIII had a healthy male heir this would almost certainly lead to English absolutism.
Possibly, I would by no means be certain about this matter however.
Matthais Corvinus said:
This absolutist Tudor Dynasty could end up forcefully uniting the British Isles. Perhaps the final piece of dominating Parliament (and the British Isles) is creating a new Empire (Kingdom?) of Britain, where the English Parliament is just a regional parliament.
The reason Henry VIII did not attempt this was due to the Scottish Alliance with France. If Henry or his heirs even attempt to invade Scotland then it means war with France. Such a state would only drive the Scots further into the arms of the French.
Perhaps the situation created by the birth of a healthy male heir of Henry VIII might end up causing the early death or removal from power of the Scottish Stuarts?
Naw. The Stuarts ruled Scotland for hundreds of years. The only reason Mary and James VI were heirs to the throne of England was due to the marriage of James IV to Margaret Tudor. The English claim of the Scottish throne was not as secure as the Scottish claim to the English.

Maybe he finds a reason to invade Scotland, and deposes Queen Mary? Perhaps, they might get married (even though they're first cousins. Eugh)? Maybe the Queen of Scots suffers from an affliction, and it kills her, before she got pregnant with James VI?
Henry wanted such a wedding in OTL, see the rough wooing. This is the reason Mary was sent to France and married the Dauphin.
 
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Elizabeth is of course also available for marriage

Assuming the male heir is healthy, then Henry would have a decision to make here - marry her off to a foreign chap, to get her out of the way, or try to manipulate the potential rivals within England by marrying her to one (a Pole perhaps)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Elizabeth

I don't remember much about the English reformation. I thought that Anne Boleyn was strongly influenced by Protestant thought. Also her family would benefit in much the same way that the Seymours did. There are too factors to consider here, in order to make a prediction.
 
Naw. The Stuarts ruled Scotland for hundreds of years. The only reason Mary and James VI were heirs to the throne of England was due to the marriage of James IV to Margaret Tudor. The English claim of the Scottish throne was not as secure as the Scottish claim to the English.


Henry wanted such a wedding in OTL, see the rough wooing. This is the reason Mary was sent to France and married the Dauphin.

Actually, I meant kill off the Stuart line before the birth of James VI. I know that they've been in power since 1371.

Truth be told, I don't feel to strongly either way if the Tudors were able to retain their hold on the English Crown.
 
Elizabeth

What happens to Mary here? Is she totally out of the picture? Would'nt there still be support for her, especially since the marriage of Henry and Anne was not considered valid in many circles?
 
So if there's a major war between Scotland and England, France would side with Scotland, right? And likely be given an awful lot of room to maneuver in the New World.
 
What happens to Mary here? Is she totally out of the picture? Would'nt there still be support for her, especially since the marriage of Henry and Anne was not considered valid in many circles?

By Catholics, mostly...

Anyway, if Henry has a surviving son, he gets to inherit...

Mary probably just gets married off to some foreign prince...

So if there's a major war between Scotland and England, France would side with Scotland, right? And likely be given an awful lot of room to maneuver in the New World.

Probably... I could see variations on the French and Indian Wars of OTL occuring quite a few times...

And, since the POD is far back enough, France could get an even bigger piece of North America north of the Rio Grande than in OTL (French deep south, anyone? ;))

Besides, France sided with Scotland for one reason... Scotland has a border with England... :p
 
Elizabeth is of course also available for marriage

Assuming the male heir is healthy, then Henry would have a decision to make here - marry her off to a foreign chap, to get her out of the way, or try to manipulate the potential rivals within England by marrying her to one (a Pole perhaps)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Cardinal de la Pole was destined to marry Princess Mary before he took Holy Orders... Imagine the butterflies if they were indeed married...
 
Could Mary be married off to a foreign Catholic?

IIRC Elizabeth, Edward VI, or the hypothetical younger brother (who would be Protestant, I imagine) wouldn't be useful for alliances with Catholic nations, since they might refuse to allow such a marriage.
 
He would be King before Elizabeth became King. Either way, James VI and I decision to settle Scots in Ulster would be butterflied away.

My point was that Elizabeth got involved in Ireland. If she isn't queen her brother might have same reasons to get involved along similar lines. Not necessary but not impossible either

Oh and without Elizabeth on the throne Virginia would be called something else :cool:
 
At that point, it was just Calais... Not much of a border...
Which proves the English were inferior at fighting the Franco-Scottish alliance....;)
Besides, Scotland was only ever really useful as a distraction... ;)
You mistake Scotland for the English province of Wales.....;)

An independent Scotland in alliance with France meant Englands northern border was never secure from the French or the Scots and curbed any English ambitions in France. It was a detterent for Englands more colonial-minded monarchs.
 
He would be King before Elizabeth became King. Either way, James VI and I decision to settle Scots in Ulster would be butterflied away.

Settling a rebellious subject people on a frontier, thus making them loyal, is a very tried, and very true, approach to dealing with rebellious subjects. I don't think the Scots were particularly rebellious, but a loyal settler population was necessary to make sure that Ireland could be properly (from the English perspective) dominated by the English crown.

No Scots in the English Army would change the North American war with France. If you change the North American War, do you butterfly the American revolution? If so do you butterfly the French Revolution? If the Tudors decend into absolutism then do you have an English revolution? I just cant see a larger Empire than OTL British Empire though for any of the Great Powers.

I think that you're missing some rather large chunks of much more important short term stuff that will then affect things like the Anglo-French colonial rivalry.

The reason Henry VIII did not attempt this was due to the Scottish Alliance with France. If Henry or his heirs even attempt to invade Scotland then it means war with France. Such a state would only drive the Scots further into the arms of the French.

The French can't really affect English policy vis a vis Scotland, because they don't care about Scotland. The French cared about making sure that the English could be distracted from burning their country down from time to time with border raids. So then the Franco-Scottish alliance is based on a mutual dislike of the English.

So if Henry VIII's heirs figure out that war with France with the aim of taking the French crown is un-doable (and the 100 Years' War proves that it is), then they focus on things much closer to home. The French are occupied with wars against the Hapsburgs in the Low Countries and Italy. If the English aren't making trouble with ill-fated expeditions against France then they can successfully subjugate the Scots.

Naw. The Stuarts ruled Scotland for hundreds of years. The only reason Mary and James VI were heirs to the throne of England was due to the marriage of James IV to Margaret Tudor. The English claim of the Scottish throne was not as secure as the Scottish claim to the English.

But the English claim is being advanced by a well-run, trending absolutist regime, against a divided Scottish regency. Henry VIII's son (shall we call him Henry IX?) will be a Protestant with very close familial ties to the infant King of Scotland (I'm assuming that Mary, Queen of Scots pretty much proceeds the same way).

The kind of scenario I'm imaging is that Henry IX finds his familial relationship to the Scottish royal family a great aid in taking the country over. Following some thing along the line of OTL events Henry IX finds he needs to use military force to make sure that his cousin's interests are protected.

Or Mary, Queen of Scots', French husband doesn't die, and the Tudor regime just conquers Scotland. Scotland, without enough aid from France to fight off the English, is conquered. Though French Kings continue to style themselves "King of Scotland", the title is actually held by the English.

The lack of actual title to Scotland is ended as an issue when Henry X is crowned as the "King of Great Britain" upon his accession to the throne achieving his father's vision of a united, absolutist regime.
 
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