Electricity before the Industrial Revolution

Do you think it would be possible to discover Electricity, and some simple uses for it, like electromagnetic wired telegraphy before a time of industrialization? For example in Ancient Rome, Ancient China, or in Medieval Europe.

For example, sometime around 1300 or 1400, there would be a line of border fortresses in a European country as in OTL. There would be an electric telegraph line supported on utility poles running between one fortress and the other. One fortress could start punching away on the telegraph, which has a power source similar to the Daniell Cell, and the other fortress would receive it.

I've read opinions, that making copper wire that would be pure enough to reasonably carry electric current just wouldn't be possible without industrial technology. I've read other opinions that said that basic copper wire would've been possible even with Ancient Roman technology, just no one knew how electricity really works.

Which theory do you think is correct? Is there a possibility of a pre-industrial development of electricity?
 
That much hand drawn wire would cost an absolute fortune not even including the materials and quality would be very irregular. And pre-industrial a telegraph is probably not going to be cost effective, even in a defense situation. Signal towers or just messenger relays would probably be a better alternative. One cut wire and you've just lost a literal king's ransom in copper and skilled work.

But to answer your question, yes if somebody who knew what they were doing tried to build a telegraph using medieval technology and industry they could probably do it. However, there's a hell of a lot of steps between discovering the chemical cell and telegraph.
 
You could probably start off with lightning rods. That itself is at least some form of manipulating electricity. You could have it discovered by accident when people notice how lightning strikes a metal spire vs. a thatched/ceramic/wooden roof. And then some curious well-off person investigates it further.

I think there was one TL on here where Romans learned to harness electricity by someone studying electric rays. They knew it gave off a 'shock' IOTL but as far as I know didn't equate it to lightning or static electricity.

My money's on the Song though. They've at least got the kites to pull a Franklin experiment. Bonus points if they use electricity to partly 'revive' dead animals and conclude they've isolated pure qi.
 
That much hand drawn wire would cost an absolute fortune not even including the materials and quality would be very irregular. And pre-industrial a telegraph is probably not going to be cost effective, even in a defense situation. Signal towers or just messenger relays would probably be a better alternative. One cut wire and you've just lost a literal king's ransom in copper and skilled work.

But to answer your question, yes if somebody who knew what they were doing tried to build a telegraph using medieval technology and industry they could probably do it. However, there's a hell of a lot of steps between discovering the chemical cell and telegraph.

Hand drawn wire, but also you'd need generators. The amount of batteries required to run a telegraph over any kind of distance (especially with poor quality control on the materials) is immense. In fact, I'm not sure you could even do it at all without industrial chemical production.
 
Hand drawn wire, but also you'd need generators. The amount of batteries required to run a telegraph over any kind of distance (especially with poor quality control on the materials) is immense. In fact, I'm not sure you could even do it at all without industrial chemical production.

Good point. Seems like you'd need a 19th c understanding of electricity and magnetism to even get close on this.
 
Hand drawn wire, but also you'd need generators. The amount of batteries required to run a telegraph over any kind of distance (especially with poor quality control on the materials) is immense. In fact, I'm not sure you could even do it at all without industrial chemical production.
Exactly how much energy does it take to transmit a telegraph signal, say, 5km? Would there be some means of power generation beyond a battery capable of sending it that distance?
 
Exactly how much energy does it take to transmit a telegraph signal, say, 5km?

That's a very good question, and it depends a lot on the quality of the wire being strung. Early battery-powered telegraphs used several hundred volts for the main lines, but that's both over distances of a few hundred miles, and with several devices hooked up to the same "trunk" line.

I don't know what quality copper is available; silver could also be used, but I suspect that would make it prohibitively expensive. Hell, even copper is probably prohibitively expensive.

Even though the relation between voltage needed and distance is theoretically linear, in practice there are issue which will make that not be the case; similarly, impure or irregular wire will cause a need for higher voltage, as will less sensitive detection equipment (OTL telegraph receivers were very sensitive).

Would there be some means of power generation beyond a battery capable of sending it that distance?

Static electricity! The earliest telegraphs used it anyway; I can't believe I forgot about it. A good set-up with say a spinning wheel could probably generate the voltages needed, though such a device would be very expensive to make.
 
I'm not convinced you could do this to a degree which would be better and most importantly cheaper than a semaphore relay, which is already a very expensive undertaking.

You could probably start off with lightning rods. That itself is at least some form of manipulating electricity. You could have it discovered by accident when people notice how lightning strikes a metal spire vs. a thatched/ceramic/wooden roof. And then some curious well-off person investigates it further.

More lightning rods would have less tall churches burning down.
 
The most basic requirement, before power, before anything is wire. If I remember right wire was not drawn before the 1500's which is why ancient wire always has a seam.

Drawing wire without machinery is a long slow process, allowing the weight of the worker to repeatedly pull the metal through a series of slightly smaller holes in a steel die. This works well for gold and silver and probably copper but produces relatively short lengths intended for jewellery.

Thus producing large amounts of wire would need changes in mining, smelting, steel work, tool making, manufacturing systems all with almost no drivers.

I believe it is actually easier to build an ancient radio than it is to build an ancient telegraph system.
 
The most basic requirement, before power, before anything is wire. If I remember right wire was not drawn before the 1500's which is why ancient wire always has a seam.

Drawing wire without machinery is a long slow process, allowing the weight of the worker to repeatedly pull the metal through a series of slightly smaller holes in a steel die. This works well for gold and silver and probably copper but produces relatively short lengths intended for jewellery.

Thus producing large amounts of wire would need changes in mining, smelting, steel work, tool making, manufacturing systems all with almost no drivers.

I believe it is actually easier to build an ancient radio than it is to build an ancient telegraph system.

Indeed, a Spark gap Radio isn't especially complicated for what it is and require much less wire. But it also requires understanding of electromagnetic theory, specifically Maxwell's Equations, and that's not something you can pull out of a hat.

We take electricity for granted but it took a long time to figure out what it was, let alone link it to magnetism and light.

I suspect the first uses of electricity will be as prestige items, Ben Franklin using Leyden jars as party tricks comes to mind. I think firestarting might also be an early practical use, as it would be a reliable method. (Say in mining projects, specifically military traps and the like?)
 
Honestly if people succeed in develop a generator before the industrialization, I expect it will be powered by water or wind.
 
Honestly if people succeed in develop a generator before the industrialization, I expect it will be powered by water or wind.

Generators are just huge bundles of wire moving past each other. Still need to create wire on an industrial scale to even make a small generator.
 
I suspect the first uses of electricity will be as prestige items, Ben Franklin using Leyden jars as party tricks comes to mind. I think firestarting might also be an early practical use, as it would be a reliable method. (Say in mining projects, specifically military traps and the like?)

Don't forget religious applications.

"Rub your hands on this ball of demon-collecting sulfur. Now put your hand on this jar. BOOM! Demons gone. Be well, my child!"
 
Indeed, a Spark gap Radio isn't especially complicated for what it is and require much less wire. But it also requires understanding of electromagnetic theory, specifically Maxwell's Equations, and that's not something you can pull out of a hat.

We take electricity for granted but it took a long time to figure out what it was, let alone link it to magnetism and light.
I disagree but then I would:
www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/newtons-radio.90721/
 
I wonder whether an accidental, rather than progressively developmental discovery of spark-gap radio would delay or accelerate the development of quantum physics.

In OTL, radio was discovered by the "on shoulders of giants", rather than the "accidental tinkering" method, and a clear progression towards it, and its result: quantum physics can be observed:

-Volta discovers the chemical battery, the first continuous and reliable source of electricity, right at the start of the 19th century. While the 18th century was the century of static electricity, the 19th is the century of direct current

-Faraday, experimenting with this new source of electricity discovers the relationship between electricity and magnetism, the concept of electric fields, and the fact that electricity also has an effect on things, that are not strictly wired together as a circuit (e.g. bringing a live wire near a compass will deflect it)

-Maxwell, building on Faraday's experiments and his expertise in Mathematics devises the Maxwell Equations and the (then theoretical) concept of "Maxwellian Waves" (now called electromagnetic radiation)

-Hertz devises an experiment to prove the existence of Maxwellian Waves. A spark caused in a circuit containing an induction coil causes a smaller, barely visible spark in an identical circuit in which the power source is replaced with an antenna

-Early radio is developed, but it is believed that space is filled with a medium called the "Luminiferous Aether" that carries the Maxwellian Waves

-In the early 20th century observations on the photoelectric effect by experimenters and theoretical physicists like Einstein prove that radio waves and light are different kinds of manifestations of the same kind of radiation, which is composed of photons. There is no Luminiferous Aether, rather, electromagnetic radiation has an energy of its own and a wave-particle duality, and doesn't need a medium to be carried through --> quantum physics is born
 
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I wonder whether an accidental, rather than progressively developmental discovery of spark-gap radio would delay or accelerate the development of quantum physics.

In OTL, radio was discovered by the "on shoulders of giants", rather than the "accidental tinkering" method, and a clear progression towards it, and its result: quantum physics can be observed:
My solution was not really. The POD was in 1680 and first practical semaphore (spark radio) system was not for 60 years. The theory of how it works is just wrong and tends to inhibit more accurate theories.
On the other hand it stimulates an interest in physics and science in a social sense.
Over all I guessed something like quantum theory developed in late 19th century.
Obviously none of the above people even exist.
 
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