Elector Casimir Hohenzollern

[Jan Olbracht]

I've made Casimir Hohenzollern (1481-1527) Duke of Prussia before, now its time for something better. Say that sons of Elector Joachim Nestor die young and childless. His cousin Casimir Hohenzollern OTOH lives longer (his death from dysentery could be easily butterflyied away). There is still Casimir's father Frederick between him and Electorate, but IOTL Frederick was imprisoned by his power hungry son in horrible conditions under pretext of menthal illness. Frederick was released only after death of Casimir. ITTL his imprisonment would last longer and thus Frederick could die earlier.
So after death of Joachim Nestor in 1535 Casimir became head of House of Hohenzollern and next Elector of Brandenburg. Say, that without dysentery he lives to age 75 (like his dad IOTL) and dies in 1556. What does it mean? Besides being bloodthirsty monster (Casimir was infamous for his cruelty, was responsible for massacres of peasants during Peasant Wars and, as I've already mentioned, imprisoned his own father. No surprise he was called "Bloodhound") he was also staunch Habsburg supporter (IOTL he died fighting on Ferdinand's side in Hungary) and Catholic, unlike his younger brothers, who converted to Lutheranism. Thus we could see Brandenburg staying Catholic (Joachim Nestor also remained Catholic at the time of Reformation). And not only this-as Habsburg ally Casimir is likely to actively side with the Emperor during any analogue of Schmalkaldic Wars (and rather obviously, his son Albert, who was IOTL raised by his Protestant uncle George after Casimir's death, would not lead Protestant forces at Sievershausen). With Brandenburg supporting Catholic side actively, how would Protestants fare ITTL in HRE?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

With Catholic Brandenburg Catholic Electors in HRE would outnumber Protestant ones 5 to 2. Possibly even more, because Marie, daughter of Casimir Hohenzollern (who was raised as Protestant by her uncle after Casimir's death) converted her husband, Elector of Palatinate Frederick III. ITTL Marie is not raised by Protestant uncle and it is not even given, that she would marry him ITTL. So if Elector Palatine does not convert, Saxony would be the only Protestant Electorate in HRE.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

How about another suggestion. Joachim II is a little more pro-active in his conversion instead of trying to sit two horses with one ass, and it costs him the electoral throne (as it did in Saxony). Hell, it doesn't even need to be that, it can just be that he is on the losing side against the Habsburgs, and is thus seen as "treacherous". Habsburgs prefer his "loyal" cousin and the electoral vote is removed to Kasimir's hands?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

How about another suggestion. Joachim II is a little more pro-active in his conversion instead of trying to sit two horses with one ass, and it costs him the electoral throne (as it did in Saxony). Hell, it doesn't even need to be that, it can just be that he is on the losing side against the Habsburgs, and is thus seen as "treacherous". Habsburgs prefer his "loyal" cousin and the electoral vote is removed to Kasimir's hands?

It is also good, although I'd preffer Kasimir to get Electorate more peacefully.
Kasimir had young wife at the time of his death, so he could leave more children (including second son, who would get Kulmbach while older one would inherit Brandenburg). There would still be Protestant Hohenzollern lines in Bayreuth and Ducal Prussia (although I wonder if we would see reverse of OTL situation and Kasimir raising son of his brother Georg as Catholic? Although Kasimir could just get rid off his nephew, he certainly would be capable to do it). Also Kasimir's line (unlike descendants of Joachim IOTL) don't need confirmation of their rights to Ducal Prussia. Brothers of Grand Master Albrecht Hohenzollern were guaranteed these rights already in Treaty of Cracow in 1525.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Saxony being the only Catholic electorate may return to the Catholic fold a lot sooner than OTL. If say, Prince Severinus of Saxony (brother of Moritz and August) were to survive. He was apparently being educated in Innsbruck and a match even being considered with one of Ferdinand I's daughters, when he died (granted, this was George the Bearded's doings, not his parents; and plenty of royals have been engaged to one person as a child and ended up marrying elsewhere).

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Longer living Kasimir means also no Sievershausen, thus Catholic sons of Heinrich of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel would not be killed in battle. That combined would skew balance between Protestants and Catholics in favour of the latter, to what degree?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Longer living Kasimir means also no Sievershausen, thus Catholic sons of Heinrich of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel would not be killed in battle. That combined would skew balance between Protestants and Catholics in favour of the latter, to what degree?

Well, Welfs duchies would be almost all Catholic then - Erich of Kahlenberg was born Catholic, raised Lutheran and then turned back to Catholicism - plus a predominantly Catholic electoral college (which could skew things in the Habsburg favour - at least temporarily).

However, there are states where the ruler might go Protestant for mercenary means (a la Gustaf Vasa and Henry VIII - you need money/land, who's the biggest landowners in the state? The church). In fact, I could see Kasimir sort of swearing up and down "no, really, I'm a good, law-abiding Catholic" while seizing church properties etc, and possibly being placed under papal censure for doing that.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Well, Welfs duchies would be almost all Catholic then - Erich of Kahlenberg was born Catholic, raised Lutheran and then turned back to Catholicism - plus a predominantly Catholic electoral college (which could skew things in the Habsburg favour - at least temporarily).

However, there are states where the ruler might go Protestant for mercenary means (a la Gustaf Vasa and Henry VIII - you need money/land, who's the biggest landowners in the state? The church). In fact, I could see Kasimir sort of swearing up and down "no, really, I'm a good, law-abiding Catholic" while seizing church properties etc, and possibly being placed under papal censure for doing that.

Casimir-rather not, but his son Albrecht could do it. IOTL he was indebted troublemaker, always in need of money. Although there is a thing that could keep also him Catholic-ITTL Sigismund the Old would not refuse him hand of his daughter.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Casimir-rather not, but his son Albrecht could do it. IOTL he was indebted troublemaker, always in need of money. Although there is a thing that could keep also him Catholic-ITTL Sigismund the Old would not refuse him hand of his daughter.

But as elector (and not an only child) would Al(brecht)-Al(kibiades) be solely interested in a Jagiellon princess? Or would Al-Al try for one of Ferdinand I's daughters?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

But as elector (and not an only child) would Al(brecht)-Al(kibiades) be solely interested in a Jagiellon princess? Or would Al-Al try for one of Ferdinand I's daughters?

OTL Elector Joachim II was interested in Sigismund's daughter, so I see no reason why Albrecht would not be.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

OTL Elector Joachim II was interested in Sigismund's daughter, so I see no reason why Albrecht would not be.

Yes, but Joachim II married Sigmund's oldest daughter, and with only one brother, the chances of her inheriting Poland were pretty good. Al-Al is too young for Hedwig, so he'll go for Sofia, Katharina or Anna. None of which are the eldest girl.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Yes, but Joachim II married Sigmund's oldest daughter, and with only one brother, the chances of her inheriting Poland were pretty good. Al-Al is too young for Hedwig, so he'll go for Sofia, Katharina or Anna. None of which are the eldest girl.

It does not matter. There is no primogeniture in Poland. Someone closely related to Sigismund is going to be elected after him with almost 100 certainty. But it does not need to be descendant of oldest daughter.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It does not matter. There is no primogeniture in Poland. Someone closely related to Sigismund is going to be elected after him with almost 100 certainty. But it does not need to be descendant of oldest daughter.

Oh, okay. Forgot about that niggly detail (if I knew it to begin with, although I suspect you have explained it to me before)

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Oh, okay. Forgot about that niggly detail (if I knew it to begin with, although I suspect you have explained it to me before)

Some candidates for Sigismund the Old's sons-in-law even preffered his younger daughters over older ones (Francis I of France who preffered Isabella over Hedwig, Johan Vasa, who preffered Catherine over Anna). Also Ferdinand hardly had daughters available (unless Al wants to wait for younger ones). He needs his older daughters for King of Poland, Duke of Bavaria, Duke of Jülich-Cleves and, if Severinus lives, also for Saxon Duke.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Some candidates for Sigismund the Old's sons-in-law even preffered his younger daughters over older ones (Francis I of France who preffered Isabella over Hedwig, Johan Vasa, who preffered Catherine over Anna). Also Ferdinand hardly had daughters available (unless Al wants to wait for younger ones). He needs his older daughters for King of Poland, Duke of Bavaria, Duke of Jülich-Cleves and, if Severinus lives, also for Saxon Duke.

This is true. Wonder if Gustaf Vasa (or who else) would get Hedwig in this scenario?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

This is true. Wonder if Gustaf Vasa (or who else) would get Hedwig in this scenario?

Rather not. Gustav is still seen as usurper of low birth. Also Gustav himself decided after death of his first wife, that he would never again search for foreign bride to avoid another humiliation of being refused.
I have no idea what to do with Hedwig, maybe even crazy plan with Luis of Beja would work ITTL.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Rather not. Gustav is still seen as usurper of low birth. Also Gustav himself decided after death of his first wife, that he would never again search for foreign bride to avoid another humiliation of being refused.
I have no idea what to do with Hedwig, maybe even crazy plan with Luis of Beja would work ITTL.

Could Christian III of Denmark happen? Maybe Frederik I is looking for allies against Gustaf/Karl V?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Back to the idea-that is what I decided:
-Sons of Elector Joachim I die young. Due to stress caused by death of sons and loss of heirs Joachim also dies few years earlier-in spring 1527.
-After death of Joachim title of Elector of Brandenburg is taken by Casimir. Father of Cacimir should be now head of House of Hohenzollern in theory, but he is imprisoned by his own son under pretext of menthal illness, and Casimir is good ally of Habsburgs, so Emperor would not make problem about this.
-Casimir leaves Hungary to take Brandenburg, thus he avoids dysentery, that killed him in Hungarian capital in September 1527.
-After Catholic Joachim II Brandenburg goes to Catholic Casimir. Casimir's oldest son Albert marries Sophia Jagiellon around 1545 (IOTL he was refused hand of Sigismund's daughter, but IOTL he was Lutheran Margrave of Kulmbach, ITTL he is Catholic and is heir to Electorate of Brandenburg).
-Having chance of getting Polish throne after childless death of Sigismund Augustus, Albert Hohenzollern has good reason to remain Catholic. Also, Albert being raised by Catholic father instead of Protestant uncle means, that he'd not lead Protestant forces against Henry of Wolfenbüttel. Battle of Sievershausen would not happen, and older sons of Duke of Wolfenbüttel (who were the same Catholic zealots like him) would not die.
-Casimir Hohenzollern is heir of Duchy of Prussia according to Treaty of Cracow made in 1525 by his brother Albrecht and uncle Sigismund.

I would leave succession in Saxony unchanged and Palatine of the Rhine still converting to Protestantism (Catholicism in HRE is already wanked ITTL compared to OTL with Brandenburg, Kulmbach and Wolfenbüttel remaining Catholic).
-Casimir would have two additional children: John (born 1529) future Margrave of Kulmbach, and Sophia (1531) future Archduchess of Tirol as wife of Ferdinand Habsburg.

In the long run we'd have interesting situation in Brandenburg-Catholic realm surronded by Protestants on three sides, with strong ties with Catholic Poland (possibly shared dynasty or personal union).