Election of the German Roman Emperor

I'm having trouble working out who should be elected German Roman Emperor c1308 in my Timeline.

Some background:

Friedrich II is succeeded in 1250 by his son Conrad, King of the Romans, King of Sicily, King of Cyprus, III Duke of Swabia (son of his 2nd marriage to Queen Isabella of Cyprus), as GmRE Conrad IV.
This Conrad is similar enough to OTL Conrad that he dies in Sicily c1254 but is ATL childless.

Conrad's half brother Heinrich King of Arelat (F II's son by Alice of England) is elected in 1256 and has a long career as German Roman Emperor incidentally securing Sicily for Manfred on provisio it is forever separate from the GmRE.

Heinrich VII has 2 marriages:

1) 1254 to Constanza Champagne, later heiress to the County of Provence, producing
Friedrich, Count of Provence, b60 killed 1283 in the Empire's humiliating defeat near Narbonne following the Aragonese invasion/succession of the Kingdom of Sicily Insular (inherited by the incompetent Henry 2nd son of Manfred in a Vespers scenario).
Adelis b63 married in 74 to Ludwig II Ct Pal of the Rhine & Duke of Upper Bavaria
Beatrice b65 married in 76 to Albrecht II Duke of Saxony-Wittenberg
Constance b?? married in 75 to Rudolf Baden son of the Duke of Carinthia-Carniola

2) 1270 to Maria of Hungary producing
Katherine b71 married 85 to Infante Alfonso of Aragon as part of the Treaty of Rome confirming Island of Sicily and Pyrenean overlordship under Aragon
Elisabeth b74 betrothed 75 married 87 to Waclaw II of Bohemia & Poland
Adelis married ?? to Hendryk Count of Zeeland son of Willem Duke of Picardy (Flanders-Hainaut) and Brabant (and claimant to the tile of Duke of Nether Lorraine)

in 1296 Heinrich is succeeded by his grandson Count Heinrich of Provence as GmRE Heinrich VIII "the Dull", King of Arelat.
Heinrich VIII's reign sees Imperial Rule largely unexercised and his nobles want to continue this.

So the claimants to the German Roman Empire in 1308 (arranged by convenience in order of succession to the throne of Arelat) are:

1) Hugh the Grand-Dauphin, Ct Pal of Burgundy, Ct of Savoy, Ct of Aosta, Duke of Chablais, Ct of Piemonte etc. He is the Vicar of Arelat plus King Consort of Arelat and Ct of Provence in right of his wife Constance, sister to Heinrich VIII.

2) Arthur/Henry of England. Husband to H VIII's sister Margarete; son of Duke Arthur Angevin of Brittany, King Consort to Queen Margaret of England.

3) Ludwig III Ct Pal of the Rhine & Duke of Upper Bavaria. Son of L II. His cousin Otto III of Lower Bavaria is a failed claimant to Hungary & Styria, and the Elector/Vicar of South Germany.

4) Albrecht III Duke of Saxe-Wittenberg. Son of A III. Elector & Vicar of North Germany.

5) Friedrich Baden. Son of Duke Rudolf of Carniola & Carinthia. Not sure if he'd be put forward as a claimant.

6) Waclaw III King of Bohemia-Poland. Elector. Brother to Henry-Andrew King of Hungary, Duke of Styria and the Eastern March.

7) Count Hendryk of Zeeland. Son of Duke Willem of Picardy-Brabant.

8) Peter IV of Aragon. Not really a claimant since he's under the control of his uncle Duke Frederick of Narbonne. Plus some nobles want to "restore" Narbonne and the Pyrenees to the Empire


So what do people think?
Hugh and Waclaw have enough power and money but are expected to exercise their rule.
Ludwig would be expected to support his cousin's claims to Hungary and Styria.
Pope Martin IV is pro-French and would prefer a candidate with a power base in the east away from France.
 
I've been thinking about it, but I'm not sure I know enough about these guys to be certain.

Probably not #2 or #6. Leaning towards #4 or #3, though I couldn't give any particularly strong reasons for it.

The Count of Zeeland seems too minor even if the nobility want to see Imperial rule be nominal.
 
Thanks Elfwine.
It is a bit difficult to say much about the candidates since they are all ATL people thanks to the ATL marriages going on.

In my initial version Arthur of England was Ct of Provence and King of Arelat and won the nomination setting off a war with France that ended with Hugh as King of Arelat, Aquitaine divided and restored to France (I've now done that a generation earlier), Hugh replacing Arthur but Arthur getting the title of Caesar of Britain. But that seemed a bit ASB.

Hugh (or Hugo) not being elected means that I get to maintain Arelat as a separate Kingdom (there are some issues between the ABs of Trier and Lyon as to who is Archchancellor of Arelat!). Hugh is also after an Electorate; if he gets it should there be another AB as Elector?

There's also now a trend away from participle inheritance. I'm thinking of highlighting this with a Imperial Bull that maintains Electorates as indivisible but also adds territory held by an Elector at the time of an Election in the absence of a sitting Emperor. If that makes any sense.

Anyways I'm thinking of have Ludwig Emperor but a short disastrous reign that sees war with Hungary and a second election within a decade of a strong but restrained Emperor - Hugh or Hendryk (now Duke of Nether Lorraine).
 
Thanks Elfwine.
It is a bit difficult to say much about the candidates since they are all ATL people thanks to the ATL marriages going on.

Makes sense. I'm presuming in absence of information to the contrary that none of these guys are particularly liked or disliked by any elector/s - they may be seen as more or less threatening from the perspective of "don't want an emperor who thinks he has real authority", but no one has made any particular diplomatic successes or bungles.

In my initial version Arthur of England was Ct of Provence and King of Arelat and won the nomination setting off a war with France that ended with Hugh as King of Arelat, Aquitaine divided and restored to France (I've now done that a generation earlier), Hugh replacing Arthur but Arthur getting the title of Caesar of Britain. But that seemed a bit ASB.
Yeah. That would be tricky to pull off even if you nudged events.

Hugh (or Hugo) not being elected means that I get to maintain Arelat as a separate Kingdom (there are some issues between the ABs of Trier and Lyon as to who is Archchancellor of Arelat!). Hugh is also after an Electorate; if he gets it should there be another AB as Elector?
Possibly. I assume AB is Archbishop (just as I assumed Ct is Count)?

There's also now a trend away from participle inheritance. I'm thinking of highlighting this with a Imperial Bull that maintains Electorates as indivisible but also adds territory held by an Elector at the time of an Election in the absence of a sitting Emperor. If that makes any sense.
Not quite. So the electorates are indivisible, and the Bull does...what exactly?

Anyways I'm thinking of have Ludwig Emperor but a short disastrous reign that sees war with Hungary and a second election within a decade of a strong but restrained Emperor - Hugh or Hendryk (now Duke of Nether Lorraine).
That seems most interesting, though I'm not sure what you mean by strong but restrained - strong in his own right, but restrained in Imperial power?

Though what prompts the second election? Ludwig's death? Some attempt to kick him out?
 
Makes sense. I'm presuming in absence of information to the contrary that none of these guys are particularly liked or disliked by any elector/s - they may be seen as more or less threatening from the perspective of "don't want an emperor who thinks he has real authority", but no one has made any particular diplomatic successes or bungles.
Yes. Tho noone likes Peter IV and Albrecht is a bit pompous in a "smallman" kind of way.
Yeah. That would be tricky to pull off even if you nudged events.
Yep. Too many zombie moths! ;)
Possibly. I assume AB is Archbishop (just as I assumed Ct is Count)?
Yes. Abbreviations are our friends when there are so many titles :D
Not quite. So the electorates are indivisible, and the Bull does...what exactly?
Well the OTL Bull of 1356 set out indivisible Electorates so I'll have something similar. Plus a possible later Bull that sets out that non-Electorate land held by an Elector can become part of the Electorate.
That may be too counter intuitive tho.
That seems most interesting, though I'm not sure what you mean by strong but restrained - strong in his own right, but restrained in Imperial power?
Yes. Ludwig proves quite a example in overuse of Imperial Powers without any power to back it up. So everyone is in favour of the reverse.
Though what prompts the second election? Ludwig's death? Some attempt to kick him out?
A mix of both. I'm thinking the Ludwig's main sponsor Pope Martin IV dies and his replacement champions Hugh while Ludwig alienates Elector after Elector. Luckily Ludwig dies before things get too confrontational between them.
 
Yes. Tho noone likes Peter IV and Albrecht is a bit pompous in a "smallman" kind of way.

Gotcha.

Yep. Too many zombie moths! ;)
Stupid zombie moths.

Well the OTL Bull of 1356 set out indivisible Electorates so I'll have something similar. Plus a possible later Bull that sets out that non-Electorate land held by an Elector can become part of the Electorate.
That may be too counter intuitive tho.
Ahhh. So for instance if the Elector of Brandenburg inherits Austria (for instance), Austria is now part of the unalienable lands held by whoever is Elector of Brandenburg? That's a huge boost to their power. :eek:

Why on earth would any Emperor grant that?

Yes. Ludwig proves quite a example in overuse of Imperial Powers without any power to back it up. So everyone is in favour of the reverse.
Ouch.

A mix of both. I'm thinking the Ludwig's main sponsor Pope Martin IV dies and his replacement champions Hugh while Ludwig alienates Elector after Elector. Luckily Ludwig dies before things get too confrontational between them.
This sounds like the title of Emperor is heading to become meaningless even faster than OTL.
 
Ahhh. So for instance if the Elector of Brandenburg inherits Austria (for instance), Austria is now part of the unalienable lands held by whoever is Elector of Brandenburg? That's a huge boost to their power. :eek:

Why on earth would any Emperor grant that?

I wasn't planning on making quite like that.
Merely that it's only possible a) if it is part of the Elector's territories at the time of Election b) if the Emperor-elect approves.
However it does appear a tad unrealistic :eek:

This sounds like the title of Emperor is heading to become meaningless even faster than OTL.

Not exactly, more that the Imperial Diet is formalised earlier with something like the Imperial Circles but each headed by an Elector.
 
I wasn't planning on making quite like that.
Merely that it's only possible a) if it is part of the Elector's territories at the time of Election b) if the Emperor-elect approves.
However it does appear a tad unrealistic :eek:

Well, its not necessarily unrealistic as a concession forced on the Emperor, but no one would willingly offer it - the Electors are quite strong enough without being granted more unalienable lands.

Not exactly, more that the Imperial Diet is formalised earlier with something like the Imperial Circles but each headed by an Elector.

Well, if you increase the powers of the Electors, the Emperor's position weakens whether you specifically intend that or not.
 
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