election of 1876: the blacks unscrewed?

What if whaever problem with the Republican vote in Oregan had been solved so it was undisputed that Hayes was had won the state what does that do to the blacks in the southern states between 1877 and circa 1966?
 
By 1876 about 3,000 soldiers were left in the South. The carpetbagger, Freedmen, and Scalawag alliances had splintered irrevocably among Moderate and Radical lines, which allowed Redeemers to murder their way into office as most of the army went home or to fight Natives out west. The North did not want to stay in the South, and as soon as the Democrats win the House (which they did in 1874), Senate, or Presidency Reconstruction is practically over. Hell in 1873 only 4 states were Republican controlled down south: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and South Carolina (the latter two having a smaller white population then their black on). Arkansas went in 1874, and so did the rest in '77.

It doesn't matter how long the Republicans have all 3 branches, it doesn't matter if Grant wins a 3rd term, by the mid 70's the northern public did not care enough for the southern negro to keep paying their taxes for an army to hold down people who weren't going to secede again. Unless you have some kind of event to flare up Northerners to keep the military full force, like the KKK forms a several thousand man army and storms DC, it really will go out with a whimper.
 
By 1876 about 3,000 soldiers were left in the South. The carpetbagger, Freedmen, and Scalawag alliances had splintered irrevocably among Moderate and Radical lines, which allowed Redeemers to murder their way into office as most of the army went home or to fight Natives out west. The North did not want to stay in the South, and as soon as the Democrats win the House (which they did in 1874), Senate, or Presidency Reconstruction is practically over. Hell in 1873 only 4 states were Republican controlled down south: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and South Carolina (the latter two having a smaller white population then their black on). Arkansas went in 1874, and so did the rest in '77.

It doesn't matter how long the Republicans have all 3 branches, it doesn't matter if Grant wins a 3rd term, by the mid 70's the northern public did not care enough for the southern negro to keep paying their taxes for an army to hold down people who weren't going to secede again. Unless you have some kind of event to flare up Northerners to keep the military full force, like the KKK forms a several thousand man army and storms DC, it really will go out with a whimper.

I agree with this entire post.
 
What if whaever problem with the Republican vote in Oregan had been solved so it was undisputed that Hayes was had won the state what does that do to the blacks in the southern states between 1877 and circa 1966?

I goofed, its not that Tilden needed to carry all the disputed states to win, Hayes did. It might take ASBs to give them all legitamly to Hayes, but then Tilden may have only seemed to have carried most of them due to the intimidation of the black vote
 
By 1876 about 3,000 soldiers were left in the South. The carpetbagger, Freedmen, and Scalawag alliances had splintered irrevocably among Moderate and Radical lines, which allowed Redeemers to murder their way into office as most of the army went home or to fight Natives out west. The North did not want to stay in the South, and as soon as the Democrats win the House (which they did in 1874), Senate, or Presidency Reconstruction is practically over. Hell in 1873 only 4 states were Republican controlled down south: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and South Carolina (the latter two having a smaller white population then their black on). Arkansas went in 1874, and so did the rest in '77.

It doesn't matter how long the Republicans have all 3 branches, it doesn't matter if Grant wins a 3rd term, by the mid 70's the northern public did not care enough for the southern negro to keep paying their taxes for an army to hold down people who weren't going to secede again. Unless you have some kind of event to flare up Northerners to keep the military full force, like the KKK forms a several thousand man army and storms DC, it really will go out with a whimper.

So, I guess this means southern blacks are going to get screwed no matter what? They were going to be second class citizens no matter what for close to a century?

And all I was asking was for Hayes and co. not to have to make a deal to get elected in 1876.

No wonder I didn't take the Constitution very seriously until I was in college in the middle 1960's and I'm white.

And all I was asking was for the GOP not to have to make a deal to get elected in 1876.
 
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So, I guess this means southern blacks are going to get screwed no matter what? They were going to be second class citizens no matter what for close to a century?

And all I was asking was for Hayes and co. not to have to make a deal to get elected in 1876.

No wonder I didn't take the Constitution very seriously until I was in college in the middle 1960's and I'm white.

And all I was asking was for the GOP not to have to make a deal to get elected in 1876.


Constitutions don't mean a thing unless public opinion is ready for them.

The Fugitive Slave Law, the Dred Scott Decision, Prohibition and busing were all actually or allegedly mandated by the Constitution. We all know how well they worked.

Actually, I think Reconstruction achieved as much as it could have, In particular, it got the 14th and 15th amendments written into law, so that if and when public opinion had advanced enough to take them seriously, they were ready and waiting to be applied. The Civil Rights struggle would have been vastly harder without them.
 
A fact that I had not realized until I read Michael F. Holt's *By One Vote: The Disputed Presidential Election of 1876* (Lawrence, Kansas: University Press of Kansas 2008) : It was actually Grant--after Hayes had finally been elected on the morning of March 2--who ordered the troops in South Carolina and Louisiana back to their barracks, which order guaranteed the instant collapse of the Republican administrations in those states. But for unknown reasons the order went astray, so it was left to Hayes to issue similar orders within a few weeks of his inauguration. If Grant's orders had been implemented, Hayes' reputation today might be a little higher, since it would be harder to blame him for the betrayal of southern African Americans.

See also:


"This has been presented as the critical point of the Wormsley Conference
and the *quid pro quo* of the Bargain from the Southern point of view.
But the fact is that a week before these negotiations opened a means had
been devised to insure the removal of the troops in case Hayes forgot his
promises or was unable to carry them out. At a Democratic caucus on
February 19, 1877, a majority of the members voted for a resolution to
write into the army appropriations bill, then still pending, a clause
forbidding the use of troops to support the claims of any state government
in the South until it should be recognized by Congress. A bill containing
such a clause was passed by the House and a penalty of hard labor and
imprisonment provided for anyone found guilty of violating the act. When
the Republican Senate refused to accept the clause the House stood its
ground and adjourned without making any appropriation for the army
whatever.

"After he became president, the only way Hayes could get provisions, pay,
and transportation for the army after the end of the fiscal year was to
call an extra session of Congress. Since the new House would alo have a
hostile majority, Hayes postponed the extra session for seven months. He
was thus compelled to rely upon unpaid and unhappy officers and men to
suppress the violent labor upheavals in several states in August 1877.
The army remained unpaid and unhappy until November 30, after congress
finally relented.

"This is the situation to which Mrs. Hayes referred in August 1877 whem
during a conversation with Thomas Donaldson regarding the President's
abandonment of the Republican governors in the South, she exclaimed, 'Why,
what could Mr. Hayes do but what he did? He had no army.' The president
himself, talking with Donaldson in the White House on the same subject in
October, remarked: 'In adition, the House was against me and I had no
army, and public sentiment demanded a change of policy.' Senator Oliver
P.Morton of Indiana. while deploring the policy, completely absolved Hayes
from blame for deserting the Carpetbaggers and placed the responsibility
upon the stubborn majority of the House.

"In saying that 'public sentiment demanded a change of policy,'Hayes was
acknowledging the power of a force so strong that it had compelled
President Grant to give up his own policy of intervening with force in the
South to uphold Republican governments. During the last three months of
his administration he maintained a benevolent neutrality that enabled the
'Redeemers' of Louisiana and South Carolina to establish *de facto*
control over those states and left the Carpetbaggers with a mere shadow of
authority. On February 26 Grant publicly admitted that the people of the
country were 'clearly opposed to the further use of troops in upholding a
state government.' He also promised the Southerners to recall the troops
as soon as the electoral count was completed, and that he did not succeed
does not appear to have been his fault. Grant deserves much of the credit
or blame that has been assigned to Hayes for initiating the new Southern
policy." C. Vann Woodward, *Reunion and Reaction: The Compromise of 1877 and the
End of Reconstruction,* pp. 8-10
 
So, I guess this means southern blacks are going to get screwed no matter what? They were going to be second class citizens no matter what for close to a century?

By 1876 this is probably true. If Reconstruction had been done differently in the beginning, this is not necessarily so. A surviving Lincoln might have prevented the Moderate and Radical Republicans from splitting and the party could have survived locally in at least some states. If Lincoln or Johnson had broken up the plantation elite and distributed land to freedman to keep their economic independence, the freedman might have had enough economic clout to hold onto power. If the impeachment of Andrew Johnson and other political quarrels not demoralized public opinion on the issue, then there would be longer support by northerners for civil rights in southern states.
 
So, I guess this means southern blacks are going to get screwed no matter what? They were going to be second class citizens no matter what for close to a century?

And all I was asking was for Hayes and co. not to have to make a deal to get elected in 1876.

No wonder I didn't take the Constitution very seriously until I was in college in the middle 1960's and I'm white.

And all I was asking was for the GOP not to have to make a deal to get elected in 1876.

I wouldn't say no matter what, but by 1876 the Southern Republican coalition had hopelessly split, ruined their reputation among willing voters, and have been literally beaten back by terrorist force in the streets and collaborators in Congress.
 
Ja. I'm rather afraid that 'unscrewing blacks' at this point is as likely politically as it is biologically (i.e. giving them a fair shake vs raped girls being rendered virgins and their mixed blood kids unborn).
 
So, I guess this means southern blacks are going to get screwed no matter what? They were going to be second class citizens no matter what for close to a century?
.

At some point, the PODs are just too late to change anything, and this is probably one of those times.
 
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