Elamite Empire

What if instead of forming the Achaemenid empire, Cyrus the Great took Susa and Shimaski and reformed the Elamite Empire?
 
What if instead of forming the Achaemenid empire, Cyrus the Great took Susa and Shimaski and reformed the Elamite Empire?

Since Cyrus did take both areas, and he and subsequent early Achaemenids did:
a) reside in Susa as one of their prevalent seats, if not the main one.
b) use the Elamite languange extensively in inscriptions, and, probably, in administration as well at first (though never as the only language in either field, and not for very long).
I would suggest that the early Achaemenid Empire was indeed as close to reforming the Elamite "Empire" as you could conceivably could get at the time. By earlier Elamite standards, it would also have been a resounding success at that, even if not a lasting one.
 
Since Cyrus did take both areas, and he and subsequent early Achaemenids did:
a) reside in Susa as one of their prevalent seats, if not the main one.
b) use the Elamite languange extensively in inscriptions, and, probably, in administration as well at first (though never as the only language in either field, and not for very long).
I would suggest that the early Achaemenid Empire was indeed as close to reforming the Elamite "Empire" as you could conceivably could get at the time. By earlier Elamite standards, it would also have been a resounding success at that, even if not a lasting one.



That’s true but soon after his son Darius began to try and unravel the Elamite culture. I suppose what I’m more proposing is the idea that maybe his sons continue to use Elamite titles, customs, and promote the old Elamite gods and language across their empire.
 
Well, that's the end of this thread then. :p

I hope not because Elam is a fascinating topic, although I feel I don't know enough about it to say more.

Very fascinating indeed, and often undeservedly overlooked. However, I maintain that, in many senses, Achaemenid Persia was the last polity that could plausibly claim to be, to some degree, a representative of older Elamite heritage (which, however, was never really a very unified thing to begin with).
 
That’s true but soon after his son Darius began to try and unravel the Elamite culture. I suppose what I’m more proposing is the idea that maybe his sons continue to use Elamite titles, customs, and promote the old Elamite gods and language across their empire.

Some historians argue that the Elamites comprise a large portion of the ancestors of the modern day Lurs, whose language, Luri, split from Middle Persian.

If this is true, could it be argued that "Elamites" still exist today?
 
Some historians argue that the Elamites comprise a large portion of the ancestors of the modern day Lurs, whose language, Luri, split from Middle Persian.

If this is true, could it be argued that "Elamites" still exist today?
Not necessarily but you make a fair point. In southern India there are people called Drividians who may have a connection to Elamite but this is debated. They may have a connection with the Indus River valley civilization. While interesting it doesn’t necissarily mean that the Indus River Valley people still exist today.
 
That’s true but soon after his son Darius began to try and unravel the Elamite culture. I suppose what I’m more proposing is the idea that maybe his sons continue to use Elamite titles, customs, and promote the old Elamite gods and language across their empire.

?
Darius was not a son of Cyrus, and not even a direct discendent of his. As far as I remember, Elamite ceased to be used in Achaemenid royal inscriptions at about the time of Artaxerses I, though I think it had been declining earlier (should check).
I suppose that the problem is that by the times of Cyrus already, Elamite court culture (as in, written standards and scribal tradition, palace customs, state titles, and probably some gods as revered by Neo-Elamite court elites) was on life-support. Earlier Assyrian devastating invasions had been a hard body-blow, and both Iranic (esp. Median) and Mesopotamian traditions were increasingly more important to Achaemenids on simple demographic accounts. Even in this context, early Achaemenids clearly did see themselves as inheritors of Elamite traditions in several respects, and likely sponsored their continuation for a while.
Also, earlier Elam is now understood mainly as pluralistic concept, in which several different cultural traditions coexisted and intermingled. "Elamite Empire" is possibly an apt description for the polity of the terminal Bronze Age under Shutruk-Nakhunte, Shilhak-in-Shushinak and Kutir-Nakhunte, but for most of its history, Elam would be better described as a "confederacy".
 
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While Elamite language and customs were used for a while, Darius early in tried to snuff it out. He still used the systems, but promoted a new Aryan styled writing system and attempted to diminish the use of Elamite customs in administration.
Administrative was on life support, but the culture and language was still going for centuries. The use of Elamite in many Achaemenid administrative documents shows that it was still useful. When the Parthians invaded Elamais was still an independent state and remained so until the Sassanids took control, showing that Elamite culture was still going on their little pocket of Persia.
The title Elamite Empire describes the scenario that Cyrus and his decendents promote Elamite culture and keep it going for the long term. The scenario isn’t what if Elamite culture survived it’s what if instead of promoting Persian culture and religion they promoted Elamite culture and founded a new Elamite Empire. While the empire they founded was Elamite in the beginning, there’s a reason we don’t call it the Elamite empire or the Shutrukian empire.
 
Not necessarily but you make a fair point. In southern India there are people called Drividians who may have a connection to Elamite but this is debated. They may have a connection with the Indus River valley civilization. While interesting it doesn’t necissarily mean that the Indus River Valley people still exist today.
It is very likely that many people in Southwest Iran are still in some measure the genetic descendants of people who were "Elamites" some millennia ago, and the Lurs, being isolated, are candidates to have kept some more of that. Still, of course, no modern people is "Elamite", since everyone in the relevant area now speaks either Semitic or Iranian languages that are clearly not related to Elamite (or at least, not closely) and almost nothing of what little we know as "Elamite" cultural traditions seems to survive; I suggest that this was already largely the case in Achaemenid times, though I am ready to be corrected on this point (and, as stated, the courtly Elamite traditions had enough inertia and prestige that early Achaemenids took pride in upholding them).
Relationship between Elamite and Dravidian is now regarded as unprovable at best, if not an outright fringe theory, by most linguists with expertise on the topic. Dravidian connection with Indus Valley Civilization, while likewise currently unprovable, seems however to be a very plausible notion. I personally find attempts to decipher IVC signs on this basis quite convincing, though my information may be dated (there's increasing reason to think that IVC was not monolingual by the way).
 
It is very likely that many people in Southwest Iran are still in some measure the genetic descendants of people who were "Elamites" some millennia ago, and the Lurs, being isolated, are candidates to have kept some more of that. Still, of course, no modern people is "Elamite", since everyone in the relevant area now speaks either Semitic or Iranian languages that are clearly not related to Elamite (or at least, not closely) and almost nothing of what little we know as "Elamite" cultural traditions seems to survive; I suggest that this was already largely the case in Achaemenid times, though I am ready to be corrected on this point (and, as stated, the courtly Elamite traditions had enough inertia and prestige that early Achaemenids took pride in upholding them).
Relationship between Elamite and Dravidian is now regarded as unprovable at best, if not an outright fringe theory, by most linguists with expertise on the topic. Dravidian connection with Indus Valley Civilization, while likewise currently unprovable, seems however to be a very plausible notion. I personally find attempts to decipher IVC signs on this basis quite convincing, though my information may be dated (there's increasing reason to think that IVC was not monolingual by the way).
I agree that a link between the Dravidians and the Indus Valley civilization is plausible. I wonder if there is a linguist pushing this theory who is like the Alex Jones of the Entymological world.
I think would be interesting to see a connection(however impossible) between the Elamite and the Dravidians. While of course implausible I think it’s still interesting to think how the relation would have started.
Of course I’m no expert on Elamite history but I think that maybe the Elamites could have survived in the mountains in the Irianian plateau until the Greek invasion or maybe the Islamic conquest.
 
While Elamite language and customs were used for a while, Darius early in tried to snuff it out. He still used the systems, but promoted a new Aryan styled writing system and attempted to diminish the use of Elamite customs in administration.
Administrative was on life support, but the culture and language was still going for centuries. The use of Elamite in many Achaemenid administrative documents shows that it was still useful. When the Parthians invaded Elamais was still an independent state and remained so until the Sassanids took control, showing that Elamite culture was still going on their little pocket of Persia.
The title Elamite Empire describes the scenario that Cyrus and his decendents promote Elamite culture and keep it going for the long term. The scenario isn’t what if Elamite culture survived it’s what if instead of promoting Persian culture and religion they promoted Elamite culture and founded a new Elamite Empire. While the empire they founded was Elamite in the beginning, there’s a reason we don’t call it the Elamite empire or the Shutrukian empire.
Elymais was a semi-independent state, but it is far form clear that it kept any sort of older Elamite cultural tradition. It is obviously possible that the area still had speakers of a form of Elamite language (I've read suggestions it lasted into Islamic times) but we have no hard evidence whatsoever. if that was the case, what little we know of post-Achaemenid Elymais simply does not suggest any significant continuity beyond the name.
However, "Elam" (or a variant thereof) was generally how Mesopotamians called the place in earlier times. If the Achaemenids somehow chose to uphold "Elamite" traditions, language and so on, we still would not have called the ensemble "Elamite", rather we would have picked the terms the relevant "Elamites" of time would have used. IOTL, it turned out to be "Persia", but maybe in a ATL, "Anshan" would have been the one that sticks.
 
Elymais was a semi-independent state, but it is far form clear that it kept any sort of older Elamite cultural tradition. It is obviously possible that the area still had speakers of a form of Elamite language (I've read suggestions it lasted into Islamic times) but we have no hard evidence whatsoever. if that was the case, what little we know of post-Achaemenid Elymais simply does not suggest any significant continuity beyond the name.
However, "Elam" (or a variant thereof) was generally how Mesopotamians called the place in earlier times. If the Achaemenids somehow chose to uphold "Elamite" traditions, language and so on, we still would not have called the ensemble "Elamite", rather we would have picked the terms the relevant "Elamites" of time would have used. IOTL, it turned out to be "Persia", but maybe in a ATL, "Anshan" would have been the one that sticks.
I wonder what would have happened in that case. How long would Elamite culture have lasted? How resilient would it be? Would it expand past Iran and influence Mesopotamia and the far east(meaning Bactria and Parthia and so forth) or would the promotion be useless? Would the other Persian-ish tribes like the Medes adopt Elamite culture or would we get a situation like our time line where the Persian and later Greek culture held the cities but the plains and mountains would remain fiercely independent?
 
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