Ekhronoplanes effect on operation sea lion

[misterwibble]

So the Germans are going to be lining up these craft on the French coast in preparation for the invasion and the British will do nothing ? Presumably they'd feel that interfering with the master plan would be unsporting.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

You what?

The British sent about 12 Divisions to France (5 Regular, 1 Armoured which was deployed piecemeal, 5 TA Divisions and 1 Canadian as part of the 2nd BEF which almost immediately returned) 11 of them got back and a Brigade of the 12 (51st Highlander Division which was the only division destroyed) did as well

There was the rest of the Divisions working up in the UK

In all 27 Divisions on the British Mainland.

Plus about a million Militia (Home Guard) which where more or less armed by Sept

So unless your German division has 2,5 million men.......

And many of the Home Guard will be WW1 veterans with in depth local knowledge which makes them useful defensive troops when well armed and confident of reinforcement by the professionals, and a handy source of intel and diversions otherwise.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

So the Germans are going to be lining up these craft on the French coast in preparation for the invasion and the British will do nothing ? Presumably they'd feel that interfering with the master plan would be unsporting.

Good morning harbourmaster, today's delivery of 15" shells is just about to arrive, free of charge and with the compliments of the Royal Navy.

 

[TDM]

I think your 3rd point is incorrect. Before the Fall of France, Norway, Sweden Denmark, the Baltic States, Poland, Soviet union, Netherlands, Belgium and Northern France are all possible and more likely targets.

I don't think so because Germany won't need some high tech new fleet of craft capable of transporting 10+ divs at once to invade Norway and Sweden. All the others are much better invaded by land routes. or in the case of Denmark easily cut off anyway

Of course, Britain will - quite rightly - assume it is the intended goal, and if thdy have any sense, the other countries will be thinking that too.
Expect obstacles and mines at likely landing areaes, field and coastal artillery preregistered on likely landing/unloading sites,

yep

and maybe a few fast launches with twin or quad HMGs [1] to strike landing areas and then zoom off leaving a well ventilated plane.

[1] they'd want 20mm cannon, though a maxim pompom would do a number on an ekranoplane as it was loading/unloading or taxiing

Something like the MGB the coast defense forces had

even worse though the RN proper will just deny the landing beaches from the sea,

 

[TDM]

And many of the Home Guard will be WW1 veterans with in depth local knowledge which makes them useful defensive troops when well armed and confident of reinforcement by the professionals, and a handy source of intel and diversions otherwise.

Yep it easy to think of the HG as Warmington-on-sea's finest, but the reality was a bit different, especially in the target areas were it would matter.

And in terms of support and equipment any German infantry divs crawling of the beaches will have more in common with WW1 assaults than WW2 blitzkrieg offensives in France etc

 

[CaptainCalvert]

No, because Germany won't need some high tech new fleet of craft capable of transporting 10+ divs to invade Norway and Sweden and all the others are much better invaded by land routes. or in the case of Denmark easily cut off anyway



yep



Something like the MGB the coast defense forces had

The MGB would do very nicely. I assume other potential target states would also have something fast and annoying to cause problems for their uninvited and unwanted visitors.

 

[TDM]

The MGB would do very nicely. I assume other potential target states would also have something fast and annoying to cause problems for their uninvited and unwanted visitors.

Yep, and of course that's just the first responders and if the Germans can't defend the beach and the approaches to it, the RN and RAF will just destroy whatever they zoom across the Chanel, of more simply deny them the beach making the whole think moot.


There's also the RN Patrol Service because it's really not going to take much to stop these things doing their job on their target beaches (basically the defence of the UK coastline is layered)

 

[jlckansas]

As I have said before on other threads here, every gun that would be fired was registered to know where their shells would land and where they were at on the maps used. This included rifles, machine guns, mortars (2" and up), artillery from18 lbrs up to 13.5 and 15 Inch Railway guns and if you read some of the literature they were even planning on pulling some of the 18" howitzers and proof guns out to emplace them. Imagine the look on the observers face when he realizes the size of the target going to land on the beach and just set there, could this be one of the first uses of a YOKE call for artillery fire?

 

[RanulfC]

Firstly, if they're ekhrono-planes, out of time, isoted, then this belongs in ASB.

"Ground Effect flight" was a well known phenomenon for flying by the '40s. It was sometimes used by damaged aircraft to help extend range and keep an aircraft in the air (took less power than out-of-ground-effect flight) long enough to get somewhere 'safe'. Experiments with using the effect had been carried out since the early days of flight so the 'concept' is definitely there.

Secondly, the Wing-in-ground effect depends on wing size. If you want to fly over the ocean where waves can easily be 3m high, or even 10m, you need to stay above the waves, which means you need a huge plane.

IIRC the 'rule-of-thumb' is half your wing-span above the surface you're using for ground-effect, having said that wing-area also played a part as it was found that multiple wings gave the same effect as single large wings and spread the load better. The problem was the technology was VERY much in it's infancy and the testing was haphazard and spotty at best. So you'd need a fully research and development program and that's going to be hard to hide.

Plus pile the aircrew work-load on top of that (flying at such heights over sea waves and obstacles would be very stressful and tiring) which is going to mean fewer flights per crew. (You'd also want to factor 'speed' as being about that of a normal cargo aircraft not a modern jet propelled, purpose designed Ekranoplan.

Loading and unloading is likely to take a good bit of time, especially if they are under fire and you'd have to address where and how they would land. TCSM was essentially a flying boat anyway.

Randy

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

... I just wonder ... with a flying time of about 10 minutes across the channel ... well below possible radar detection (due to low flying 'ceiling' of some 5 perhaps 12 meters

Ekranoplan pilots realize the fatal flaw in their plan as the 110 meter cliffs of Dover loom ahead of them

 

[Michel Van]

Biggest problem here is not technology but Politic:

Herman Göring !

Everything that could fly in in third Reich was under his supervision,
And he was stock conservative in his rule over Luftwaffe,
A Man who got upset about modern Tricycle landing gear, Drop tanks and Aircraft Design,
he was raving mad as saw the Do 335 or the BV 141 screaming those are not Aircrafts
and this Man would order a fleet of Ekranoplan ???

 

[David Flin]

It's not so much that anything less than D-Day levels of resources and planning is unworthy of consideration, different contexts are different after all. But D-Day does show the levels of complexity involved in a modern seaborne landing, especially a contested one. And while there might not be an Atlantic wall waiting for Sealion on the beaches of Kent and Sussex, nor any panzer divs inland, but on D-Day the Wallies had air and sea supremacy on te beaches and approaches. On top of that the wallies had developed through a series of seaborne operations a body of knowledge in this area, the Axis not so much.

The actual D-Day landing is roughly the size of the proposed 1st wave of Sealion

TBH, anyone who has a clue about amphibious operations who looks at Sealion, even all the Cunning "One Trick That The Lead-Drinking English will hate" Plans, has a similar reaction.

There's a reason why Sandhurst used it for biannual wargames from about 1985 up until 2005 as a kind of Kobayashi Maru scenario (Effectively, students at the college were given the German forces, and lecturers and invited guests took the part of the British and as umpires). It was always great fun to see the students suddenly realise that whatever they did, they were screwed nine ways from Sunday. And that was with the unilateral rule that the British couldn't respond for 24 hours (simply to allow the Germans to get on to land). Presumably, the entire British nation were sleeping off the mother of all hangovers.

Who am I going to trust? Sandhurst and guests (some of whom had nigh on a quarter of a century of relevant experience in amphibious operations, including at least one who had been involved in an actual amphibious operation), or people whose experience seems to consist of thinking very deeply, but not actually even looking at a detailed map of the relevant terrain?

Tough one that.

 

[TDM]

TBH, anyone who has a clue about amphibious operations who looks at Sealion, even all the Cunning "One Trick That The Lead-Drinking English will hate" Plans, has a similar reaction.

There's a reason why Sandhurst used it for biannual wargames from about 1985 up until 2005 as a kind of Kobayashi Maru scenario (Effectively, students at the college were given the German forces, and lecturers and invited guests took the part of the British and as umpires). It was always great fun to see the students suddenly realise that whatever they did, they were screwed nine ways from Sunday. And that was with the unilateral rule that the British couldn't respond for 24 hours (simply to allow the Germans to get on to land). Presumably, the entire British nation were sleeping off the mother of all hangovers.

Who am I going to trust? Sandhurst and guests (some of whom had nigh on a quarter of a century of relevant experience in amphibious operations, including at least one who had been involved in an actual amphibious operation), or people whose experience seems to consist of thinking very deeply, but not actually even looking at a detailed map of the relevant terrain?

Tough one that.

Fair

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Firstly, if they're ekhrono-planes, out of time, isoted, then this belongs in ASB.

"Ground Effect flight" was a well known phenomenon for flying by the '40s.

Notice the smileys. An e-chrono-plane, as the title has, would be one out of time.

IIRC the 'rule-of-thumb' is half your wing-span above the surface you're using for ground-effect,

Hmmm... you know, if they'd built the Gigant a few years earlier, it could have been used.

 

[Garrison]

Notice the smileys. An e-chrono-plane, as the title has, would be one out of time.

Hmmm... you know, if they'd built the Gigant a few years earlier, it could have been used.

Yeah given how well even the powered version worked out I wouldn't be optimistic about the results. Also since it doesn't seem to have come up yet and it is practically mandatory for these things, what exactly is Germany giving up to build this massive airfleet of one trick pony Ekhronoplanes? I mean I can't see them being much use in the conventional bomber or transport roles and that's a lot of raw materials and aeroengines that aren't going to be available for anything else.

 

[David Flin]

Also since it doesn't seem to have come up yet and it is practically mandatory for these things, what exactly is Germany giving up to build this massive airfleet of one trick pony Ekhronoplanes? I mean I can't see them being much use in the conventional bomber or transport roles and that's a lot of raw materials and aeroengines that aren't going to be available for anything else.

They'll be making them out of Handwavium, which will also power them.

That's the usual route, isn't it?

 

[jlckansas]

Bicycles, lots of troops on bicycles onboard pedaling really fast to spin the propellers. Then when they land they can unhook the bikes and use them for transport to attack the English.

 

[BELFAST]

even assuming the Germans win in Britain, how do they feed it?
Britain relied otl on food imports from the empire and elsewhere that will not be coming.
What do the Germans do with the British with a collapsing economy and starving due to a lack of imports?
What do the Germans do with the island of Ireland?
They will not want the being used by the Americans as a base to invade from.
All of this would use the reserve of oil the Germans intend to use for the invasion of the Soviet Union.
Not only is sealion asb it is not even desirable from a German point of view.
The best outcome for Germany is Britain coming to terms and withdrawing from the war without having to invade and occupy the country.

 

[Normal for Norfolk]

They'll be making them out of Handwavium, which will also power them.

That's the usual route, isn't it?

Aren't these things generally funded by additional lead exports to be used in British tea?

 

[David Flin]

Bicycles, lots of troops on bicycles onboard pedaling really fast to spin the propellers. Then when they land they can unhook the bikes and use them for transport to attack the English.

Armoured bicycles with 15" guns.