Effects on Korea and Vietnam if China modernised during the 19th century?

Being a neighbor of a global hegemon with common cultural roots doesn't guarantee annexation/assimilation. There's Ireland and the UK. And there's Canada and the US. These countries survive thrive as independent nations even when they recognize the influence of their neighbor. And, both take pride in skewering the hegemon when it suits them.

So, why can't Vietnam play the same role here? It might, like Canada during the OTL Vietnam War, allow Chinese draft dodgers fleeing conscription into an unpopular imperialist war. Or, like Canada's relations with Cuba, openly trade with whatever country China declares an enemy.

Heh. Actually I think the better example for Vietnam would be Cuba itself. Just to scale, if nothing else. Like the rest of Central America and the Caribbean, the choices were toeing the US line or having the economy and foreign policy almost defined by the stand-off with America.
 
Heh. Actually I think the better example for Vietnam would be Cuba itself. Just to scale, if nothing else. Like the rest of Central America and the Caribbean, the choices were toeing the US line or having the economy and foreign policy almost defined by the stand-off with America.
And unlike Cuba and the lot,China has enough legal justifications to invade Vietnam and Korea if they tried to be as Cuba given they are simply vassal states.
 
Depends on whether the elites finally decides to sinicize for good this time around.Chances are still high though that they get offed.I don't imagine communism to be the answer though.

Eh.... Sinicizing was the rule for the various pre-Mongol conquerors, but the Han Chinese basically never forgave or forgot the fact. And the Manchu would have to transition to sinicization after centuries of systemic apartheid. We're talking some looong odds, I agree.

Communism definitely would not be on the table. But. A lot of the demands of the revolutionaries and resulting reforms would still come off as very left-wing or even communist when viewed through an OTL Western lens. Just because that was the nature of such things. It'd be unlikely to look much like Maoism, though, aside from the poor peasants going after landlords.
 
And unlike Cuba and the lot,China has enough legal justifications to invade Vietnam and Korea if they tried to be as Cuba given they are simply vassal states.

Legal justifications hardly matter, and anyway Vietnam was only nominally a vassal state at best.

I find it curious that you are insisting that China would (successfully) conquer Vietnam and Sinicize it, considering that Vietnam is to a great extent defined by its conflicts with China and its many (successful and unsuccessful) revolts against attempts by China to rule it. It was actually controlled by the Chinese for nearly a thousand years way back in the when, and it still broke loose in the end...
 
Legal justifications hardly matter, and anyway Vietnam was only nominally a vassal state at best.

I find it curious that you are insisting that China would (successfully) conquer Vietnam and Sinicize it, considering that Vietnam is to a great extent defined by its conflicts with China and its many (successful and unsuccessful) revolts against attempts by China to rule it. It was actually controlled by the Chinese for nearly a thousand years way back in the when, and it still broke loose in the end...

Vietnam only successfully revolted twice.All of the revolts before the end of Tang were crushed.If France can rule the place for one hundred years despite it's appalling administration,distance,massive threats in Europe and discriminatory policies,I have no doubt China could do better.Thing is,with better transport and communication,China can do a lot more.No doubt the Chinese can get better collaboration from the elites who are educated in Confucian classics than the French for example.

As for legal justifications,it means that China can invade the place without as much opposition as the US perhaps when invading Cuba for example.Legitimacy matters a lot to public opinion and morale.
 
Last edited:
Top