Effects on Christianity, Ottoman Italy

What would be the effects on Christianity if the Ottomans had taken Rome. If you want to know how, check out my TL, Seas of the Sultan. I am not concerned about how, but what.

What would happen to the Protestant Reformation etc.

So far, I have stated the the Pope moved to Avignon, and several nations have their own popes (Mainly Iberian ones). And Lollardy is more popular in England.
 
Haha, just having a little fun, and its a bump
:D
It's not really funny and you don't really deserve the fun though, because the OP is presenting a quite serious curiosity there.

Btw, to OP... what ? Did you just say that "Seas of the Sultan" TL is your TL ? Who is ibn al-Lahad then ? :confused:

To address the question.... up until to this point, the most popular conclusion to that so far was that after the conquest of Rome by Ottomans, the Great Powers of Europe will going to set their own churches, either by setting up their own papacies or just setting up national churches a la english Anglican Church. Certainly a French pope in Avignon, yes, and Iberian popes as well. In HRE, I suspect there will still be a potential for a north-south split. However, unlike IOTL, ITTL I suspect it will be the south resisting the north.
 
It's not really funny and you don't really deserve the fun though, because the OP is presenting a quite serious curiosity there.
WOW thats really not true! Ok, I guess I must answer then. Well, I think that an Ottoman conquest of Rome would be a hell of a mission to accomplish. I'm sure ALL the Catholic countries would fight bitterly to the last man. Also, depending on when Rome is taken, if it is in the 1600s, Spain will be one bitch to defeat.
 
WOW thats really not true! Ok, I guess I must answer then. Well, I think that an Ottoman conquest of Rome would be a hell of a mission to accomplish. I'm sure ALL the Catholic countries would fight bitterly to the last man. Also, depending on when Rome is taken, if it is in the 1600s, Spain will be one bitch to defeat.
Except that few Catholic Great Powers will be concerned about Ottoman invasion of Italy, so no, there's no "ALL CATHOLICS WILL RAEG CRUSADE AGAINST TURKS" option, though I agree that at least Spain will be concerned. Potentially France will too, but then again they showed little to no care when the Ottomans forces landed in Italy during 1480s. There will be no massive Crusade against Turks to liberate Italy, though the conquest won't be so piece of cake either. Remember that when hearing Ottomans landed on Italy, the Pope was immediately packing to leave Rome.

The only chance for Ottomans to conquer Italy would be during late 15th century, after that it'll one step before impossible.
 
Except that few Catholic Great Powers will be concerned about Ottoman invasion of Italy, so no, there's no "ALL CATHOLICS WILL RAEG CRUSADE AGAINST TURKS" option, though I agree that at least Spain will be concerned. Potentially France will too, but then again they showed little to no care when the Ottomans forces landed in Italy during 1480s. There will be no massive Crusade against Turks to liberate Italy, though the conquest won't be so piece of cake either. Remember that when hearing Ottomans landed on Italy, the Pope was immediately packing to leave Rome.

The only chance for Ottomans to conquer Italy would be during late 15th century, after that it'll one step before impossible.
Ok, I agree on that slightly, however, the Pope and Italy are signs of Christianity and Christian strongholds. Do you think even Britain would sit back. I believe it would be a Christian Crusade to get Italy back in the end.

Yes Spain without a doubt would devote all its resources to getting Rome back, especially under Charles! Who would win that war!? That would be a great TL, 1600s Spain vs. 1600s Ottomans:D
 
Ok, I agree on that slightly, however, the Pope and Italy are signs of Christianity and Christian strongholds. Do you think even Britain would sit back. I believe it would be a Christian Crusade to get Italy back in the end.

Yes Spain without a doubt would devote all its resources to getting Rome back, especially under Charles! Who would win that war!? That would be a great TL, 1600s Spain vs. 1600s Ottomans:D
Yes, Britain would sit back.

I think it's safe to assume that Ottoman conquest of Italy would only happen in 15th century(so just to nitpick, there was no Britain during this time). All the powers of Europe were all busy with their own bussinesses. Even the zealous Castille will not be having the capability to project its power to counter Ottoman conquest of Italy. Instead, there will be even more impetus to conquer Granada, fearing that it will fall to Ottoman sphere of influence. Wonder what will France do to react on Ottoman conquest of Italy, but certainly that will give them(the French) chance to control the Pope(because he will take refuge in Avignon), which in turn will result the splintering of the church all across Europe.
 
Yes, Britain would sit back.

I think it's safe to assume that Ottoman conquest of Italy would only happen in 15th century(so just to nitpick, there was no Britain during this time). All the powers of Europe were all busy with their own bussinesses. Even the zealous Castille will not be having the capability to project its power to counter Ottoman conquest of Italy. Instead, there will be even more impetus to conquer Granada, fearing that it will fall to Ottoman sphere of influence. Wonder what will France do to react on Ottoman conquest of Italy, but certainly that will give them(the French) chance to control the Pope(because he will take refuge in Avignon), which in turn will result the splintering of the church all across Europe.
Touche my friend, you're good... Too good...:p
 
Yes, Britain would sit back.

I think it's safe to assume that Ottoman conquest of Italy would only happen in 15th century(so just to nitpick, there was no Britain during this time). All the powers of Europe were all busy with their own bussinesses. Even the zealous Castille will not be having the capability to project its power to counter Ottoman conquest of Italy. Instead, there will be even more impetus to conquer Granada, fearing that it will fall to Ottoman sphere of influence. Wonder what will France do to react on Ottoman conquest of Italy, but certainly that will give them(the French) chance to control the Pope(because he will take refuge in Avignon), which in turn will result the splintering of the church all across Europe.
I don't think that's a given.

Yes I know the Catholic church was rotting from the inside at this point, but it wasn't about to splinter and fall apart at with the slightest blow. The Papacy had moved out of Rome before, though its reclamation would be a major goal.

With the fall of Italy, the Roman Catholic Church might reform itself come the Reformation in this timeline.

Here are some reasons why:
-the Pope isn't stupid, and he knows what will happen if he stays in Avignon. The Popes spent the whole Italian wars fighting off Austrian and French attempts at hedgemony, so why would the Pope move somewhere with a fast reach of the French crown.

-It might actualy safer for them to relocate to one of the electoral Bishoprics, allowing them to keep the French at arms distance and keep an eye on the Holy Roman Emperor.

-Of course Roman finances are going to be ruined with the loss of the Papal states.

-this would probaby up the amount of indulgences being sold, but the increased resentment of this will be slightly mitigated to the Germans by the fact that the Papacy is now IN germany

-of course this is still all going to boil over at somepoint, and someone is going to get uppity

-if the Papacy is closer to the reform area, and Germany is really the only place it could happen due to its decentralisation, then a potential luther getting away with heresy becomes slimmer. People sometimes forget that Luther was REALLY lucky. He was called before Emperor Maximilian I, but before Maximilian could get his hands on Luther the emperor kicked the bucket. Then everyone stopped caring about Luther with the contest between Francis I of France and Charles V both going for the throne. This then led to Francis I just throwing money at the protestants to piss Charles off and Charles could never really get around to dealing with the Reformation effectively since he had to be everywhere and ended up no where.

-with the papacy closer at hand, they'll be able to root out any famous heretics really fast. This doesn't however stop the reform bubble from bursting and the Pope will probably be forced to call a council along the lines of trent

-now in OTL the Pope's were fearfull of convening councils because historically the councils had moved to reduce papal power. In OTL, the Pope was able to prevent block voting amongst the bishops and to use his power over the Italian bishops to ensure whatever he wanted he got

-now ITTL, the Pope is outside of his historicall power base and all the crowned heads of Europe are interested in taking the Pope's power down a notch. TTL's council might not go the way the Pope wants to and make a few concessions to OTL Protestant ideas that wouldn't occur till Vatican II, namely mass in the vernacular, increased laity participation in the Eucharist, and MAYBE, just MAYBE, marriage for the lower clergy.

-the European monarchies would probably also be able to get some concessions regarding increased influence over their churches.

Just thought it would be nice to suggest something different from " the church is going to shatter the moment rome falls.":)
 
I don't think that's a given.

Yes I know the Catholic church was rotting from the inside at this point, but it wasn't about to splinter and fall apart at with the slightest blow. The Papacy had moved out of Rome before, though its reclamation would be a major goal.

With the fall of Italy, the Roman Catholic Church might reform itself come the Reformation in this timeline.

Here are some reasons why:
-the Pope isn't stupid, and he knows what will happen if he stays in Avignon. The Popes spent the whole Italian wars fighting off Austrian and French attempts at hedgemony, so why would the Pope move somewhere with a fast reach of the French crown.

-It might actualy safer for them to relocate to one of the electoral Bishoprics, allowing them to keep the French at arms distance and keep an eye on the Holy Roman Emperor.

-Of course Roman finances are going to be ruined with the loss of the Papal states.

-this would probaby up the amount of indulgences being sold, but the increased resentment of this will be slightly mitigated to the Germans by the fact that the Papacy is now IN germany

-of course this is still all going to boil over at somepoint, and someone is going to get uppity

-if the Papacy is closer to the reform area, and Germany is really the only place it could happen due to its decentralisation, then a potential luther getting away with heresy becomes slimmer. People sometimes forget that Luther was REALLY lucky. He was called before Emperor Maximilian I, but before Maximilian could get his hands on Luther the emperor kicked the bucket. Then everyone stopped caring about Luther with the contest between Francis I of France and Charles V both going for the throne. This then led to Francis I just throwing money at the protestants to piss Charles off and Charles could never really get around to dealing with the Reformation effectively since he had to be everywhere and ended up no where.

-with the papacy closer at hand, they'll be able to root out any famous heretics really fast. This doesn't however stop the reform bubble from bursting and the Pope will probably be forced to call a council along the lines of trent

-now in OTL the Pope's were fearfull of convening councils because historically the councils had moved to reduce papal power. In OTL, the Pope was able to prevent block voting amongst the bishops and to use his power over the Italian bishops to ensure whatever he wanted he got

-now ITTL, the Pope is outside of his historicall power base and all the crowned heads of Europe are interested in taking the Pope's power down a notch. TTL's council might not go the way the Pope wants to and make a few concessions to OTL Protestant ideas that wouldn't occur till Vatican II, namely mass in the vernacular, increased laity participation in the Eucharist, and MAYBE, just MAYBE, marriage for the lower clergy.

-the European monarchies would probably also be able to get some concessions regarding increased influence over their churches.

Just thought it would be nice to suggest something different from " the church is going to shatter the moment rome falls.":)
I said "chance", but I do think that the church shattering will be very likely. The flow will certainly be going towards that the direction, but thanks for giving me that nice piece of information about Pope's potential ammunitions to counter that :) It will certainly be quite interesting to see a devolved church instead !
 
I don't think that's a given.

Yes I know the Catholic church was rotting from the inside at this point, but it wasn't about to splinter and fall apart at with the slightest blow. The Papacy had moved out of Rome before, though its reclamation would be a major goal.

With the fall of Italy, the Roman Catholic Church might reform itself come the Reformation in this timeline.

Here are some reasons why:
-the Pope isn't stupid, and he knows what will happen if he stays in Avignon. The Popes spent the whole Italian wars fighting off Austrian and French attempts at hedgemony, so why would the Pope move somewhere with a fast reach of the French crown.

-It might actualy safer for them to relocate to one of the electoral Bishoprics, allowing them to keep the French at arms distance and keep an eye on the Holy Roman Emperor.

-Of course Roman finances are going to be ruined with the loss of the Papal states.

-this would probaby up the amount of indulgences being sold, but the increased resentment of this will be slightly mitigated to the Germans by the fact that the Papacy is now IN germany

-of course this is still all going to boil over at somepoint, and someone is going to get uppity

-if the Papacy is closer to the reform area, and Germany is really the only place it could happen due to its decentralisation, then a potential luther getting away with heresy becomes slimmer. People sometimes forget that Luther was REALLY lucky. He was called before Emperor Maximilian I, but before Maximilian could get his hands on Luther the emperor kicked the bucket. Then everyone stopped caring about Luther with the contest between Francis I of France and Charles V both going for the throne. This then led to Francis I just throwing money at the protestants to piss Charles off and Charles could never really get around to dealing with the Reformation effectively since he had to be everywhere and ended up no where.

-with the papacy closer at hand, they'll be able to root out any famous heretics really fast. This doesn't however stop the reform bubble from bursting and the Pope will probably be forced to call a council along the lines of trent

-now in OTL the Pope's were fearfull of convening councils because historically the councils had moved to reduce papal power. In OTL, the Pope was able to prevent block voting amongst the bishops and to use his power over the Italian bishops to ensure whatever he wanted he got

-now ITTL, the Pope is outside of his historicall power base and all the crowned heads of Europe are interested in taking the Pope's power down a notch. TTL's council might not go the way the Pope wants to and make a few concessions to OTL Protestant ideas that wouldn't occur till Vatican II, namely mass in the vernacular, increased laity participation in the Eucharist, and MAYBE, just MAYBE, marriage for the lower clergy.

-the European monarchies would probably also be able to get some concessions regarding increased influence over their churches.

Just thought it would be nice to suggest something different from " the church is going to shatter the moment rome falls.":)
Well, in this TL, the Papacy after the death of this Pope moves to an electrocate of Bishopric, out of French hands. In the HRE, they are able to easily quell the whole Protestant Reformation. (If it even occurs) The Council of Berlin? is called, and said reformations do take place. Several estates are given to the Pope on Germany, creating a German Papal States, under HRE umbrella. The Iberian Papacy is going to reject these demands, and an "Orthodox" Catholicism will be dominant in Iberia, and Lollardy will be embraced by Britain.
 
Not Berlin, though. Nothing there at the time.
Wasn't it originally two cities that grew into one?..

Luther, and some of the other reformers, had some great similiarities to Jan Hus. Might I suggest instead suggest a Second Council of Constance instead, to remind everyone of the similiar 'heresy.'
 
Why couldn't the Pope stay in Rome as a dhimmi leader like the Patriarch of Constantinople? Sure, he would likely lose old St. Peter's and maybe the Lateran, but would that fundamentally change his power? Or would a dhimmi Roman Pope merely result in a stronger Avignon line that claims the allegiance of more Christians? There's also the question of how many Italians would convert to Islam. That might depend on the presence or absence of Christian leaders to shore up Christian practices in conquered areas. I would not be surprised if the conversion rate is rather low and similar to the conversion rates of the Greeks under Ottoman rule.

I don't know if England would necessarily go Lollard or some other "heretical" group. It's true that England was a source of "dissenting" activity in the late 15th-early 16th century, but the people were firmly in the tradition of what we now call Medieval Catholicism (i.e. Northern Rising OTL). If Henry VIII and Edward VI are butterflied away and the Reformation doesn't take off because of chaos in western Europe, I could see England remaining nominally a "Sarum" Medieval Christian state.

I could see a peri-modern "crusade" into Italy, but I suspect the Ottomans would hold sway in Italy for at least a century due to the inevitable political conflicts outside Italy that would result from an Ottoman conquest of the peninsula. A century of Ottoman rule in Italy would probably not alter individual Italians' adherence to Christianity, but might permanently weaken Rome as the papal seat and center of western Christianity.
 
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