Effects of Romans picking non-Christian state religion

Ten percent is the lowest bound; other sources put it as high as thirty. Even if it was only ten, though, going from zero to ten in the face of official hostility and persecution is still pretty good, and whilst being made the state religion was undoubtedly a major boost there's no reason to suppose it would be "screwed" if this didn't happen.
Indeed. It was all over the place, but in India, Iran, China, etc. Didn't last more than a century or two in China, but the Nestorians didn't have the numbers for missionary work on a large scale. Neither did the Catholics (or some other Christian group) when the Mongols asked for some missionaries.

And yah, what would make so many groups come together? Christianity was universal and not based upon profession, class, ethnicity, region, etc. And, most importantly, it was not about keeping secrets. You went out of your way to tell people about your faith and anyone with knowledge of the doctrine, Gospels, etc were explicitly told not to keep it secret. If we think of all the famous secondary religions in the Roman Empire that people bring up elsewhere as alternatives to Christianity often have 'mysteries' as part of their full classification... Yah.
 
Actually I find it disapointing we seem to exclude Islam, or something very similar, from the start. Lots of potential here. Of course it would require quite a bit of work to achieve the necessary overlap even with the western Roman Empire. Maybe you could have the empire lingering on for too many centuries, ultimately embracing islam as a divine "salvation" promising to finally reverse their decline?
Would Europe still experience delayed "dark middle ages"? In fact, would a collapse of early muslim Europe "infect" the rest of western Eurasia as well and prevent the islamic golden age? Would Latin replace Arabic as the language of the Coran, or would Arabic gain influence (we have seen it supplant "vulgar latin" in Iberia, after all)? Would the anti-picture stance of Islam cause the Romans to tear down their old temples and statues, would the no-alcohol rule destroy roman wine, or would they remain pragmatic and weasel their way around it?
 
Would Europe still experience delayed "dark middle ages"? In fact, would a collapse of early muslim Europe "infect" the rest of western Eurasia as well and prevent the islamic golden age? Would Latin replace Arabic as the language of the Coran, or would Arabic gain influence (we have seen it supplant "vulgar latin" in Iberia, after all)? Would the anti-picture stance of Islam cause the Romans to tear down their old temples and statues, would the no-alcohol rule destroy roman wine, or would they remain pragmatic and weasel their way around it?
Greek would be more influential around the Eastern Mediterranean than Latin. And I think it would stay Arabic, since it would mainly be Arabs who were Muslims or who were spreading it.
 
Greek would be more influential around the Eastern Mediterranean than Latin. And I think it would stay Arabic, since it would mainly be Arabs who were Muslims or who were spreading it.


Unless they converted to Judaism, like the Khazars did a few centuries later.
 
Unless they converted to Judaism, like the Khazars did a few centuries later.
We can't be sure how much of the population converted to Judaism. And I am unsure what the Roman effect on all of this would be. If the Arabs did convert to Judaism though, a lot of changes can be expected, since the Arabs would be more dominant in the area after the Diaspora (probably reversed in such a scenario if the Arabs manage to get a strong state going), and there would be the issue of making them all Jewish in the eyes of the law, etc etc. Probably you see them end up with something like the current Muslim equivilant of the Old Testament. Lots of differences. Still, it wouldn't end up with Arabs writing the Quran in Latin, which was one of the main points. I wonder if Greek and Latin stay or become the major languages of North Africa in this world... Probably not. Since Christianity is not the official religion, there is less tieing all the future Christian kingdoms together, Christian Kings don't claim to be carrying on the traditions of Rome or anything. May end up with a lot of patriachates and such. Christianity may have mostly been kept to more urban areas in North Africa anyways, so some new religion isn't goinng to change things on the ground as much, outside of making those practicing it be more hated, being seen as following something the Romans are once again trying to push on them.
 
Actually I find it disapointing we seem to exclude Islam, or something very similar, from the start. Lots of potential here. Of course it would require quite a bit of work to achieve the necessary overlap even with the western Roman Empire. Maybe you could have the empire lingering on for too many centuries, ultimately embracing islam as a divine "salvation" promising to finally reverse their decline?
Would Europe still experience delayed "dark middle ages"? In fact, would a collapse of early muslim Europe "infect" the rest of western Eurasia as well and prevent the islamic golden age? Would Latin replace Arabic as the language of the Coran, or would Arabic gain influence (we have seen it supplant "vulgar latin" in Iberia, after all)? Would the anti-picture stance of Islam cause the Romans to tear down their old temples and statues, would the no-alcohol rule destroy roman wine, or would they remain pragmatic and weasel their way around it?
Islam's three centuries away after Christianity was adopted.
 
Actually I find it disapointing we seem to exclude Islam, or something very similar, from the start. Lots of potential here. Of course it would require quite a bit of work to achieve the necessary overlap even with the western Roman Empire. Maybe you could have the empire lingering on for too many centuries, ultimately embracing islam as a divine "salvation" promising to finally reverse their decline?
Would Europe still experience delayed "dark middle ages"? In fact, would a collapse of early muslim Europe "infect" the rest of western Eurasia as well and prevent the islamic golden age? Would Latin replace Arabic as the language of the Coran, or would Arabic gain influence (we have seen it supplant "vulgar latin" in Iberia, after all)? Would the anti-picture stance of Islam cause the Romans to tear down their old temples and statues, would the no-alcohol rule destroy roman wine, or would they remain pragmatic and weasel their way around it?
There are way too many butterflies for Islam to form, and depending on what form of Christianity would survive or become common in such a TL, many might not even recognise a theologically similar Islam as something distinct from Christianity. Arianism with another prophet, or Arianism as understood by the Arabs might be such an interpretation.

But also, it's equally possible that an Islam like religion might not form. Manichaeism was already a competitor, never mind the various pagan faiths which could have come about (I believe there was a popular cult of triple goddesses before the rise of Islam?).
 

samcster94

Banned
There are way too many butterflies for Islam to form, and depending on what form of Christianity would survive or become common in such a TL, many might not even recognise a theologically similar Islam as something distinct from Christianity. Arianism with another prophet, or Arianism as understood by the Arabs might be such an interpretation.

But also, it's equally possible that an Islam like religion might not form. Manichaeism was already a competitor, never mind the various pagan faiths which could have come about (I believe there was a popular cult of triple goddesses before the rise of Islam?).
Islam isn't a candidate as it formed too late and Byzantium isn't going to become Muslim. Zoroastrianism, a popular religion in the pre-Islamic world, is strangely absent from the discussion. It has many of the things Christianity has, except the Persian king/emperor being connected to its god. A third option, although it might violate the spirit of the thread, is to just make Jesus a Roman god for political reasons regardless of what Christians think.
 
Islam isn't a candidate as it formed too late and Byzantium isn't going to become Muslim. Zoroastrianism, a popular religion in the pre-Islamic world, is strangely absent from the discussion. It has many of the things Christianity has, except the Persian king/emperor being connected to its god. A third option, although it might violate the spirit of the thread, is to just make Jesus a Roman god for political reasons regardless of what Christians think.
I agree that Islam isn't a candidate and mentioned that it would be butterflied away. The post I quoted however also included Islam style religions to which I addressed the rest of my post.

Zoroastrianism, whilst not strictly linked to the king, was very much the Persian faith, and I believe was referred to as such.
 

samcster94

Banned
I agree that Islam isn't a candidate and mentioned that it would be butterflied away. The post I quoted however also included Islam style religions to which I addressed the rest of my post.

Zoroastrianism, whilst not strictly linked to the king, was very much the Persian faith, and I believe was referred to as such.
Indeed, Zoroastrianism's secular aspects have influenced Iran to this day(even as a Shia Theocracy).
 
I have question? what happens if no faith "wins" by the time the Roman Empire falls. Religio Roma continues going, the mystery cults Manichesim and Christianity are "there" at but not dominant, local gods are still worshipped, and then Roman authority in the west and perhaps in the east falls apart.

"Christian" and "Roman" were tied together as an identity in 476. But if the fate of your immortal soul is no longer tied to being "Roman" and therefore "Christian" wouldn't it be easier to shed your "Roman" identity that is obviously no longer favored by the divine? As a result isn't it easier for the Franks to pull a "Saxon" and bring Northern Gaul into a modified Germanic cultural orbit, the Berbers to forget about being Roman clients? Egyptians to assimilate a Greek upper class? As a result, Odin, Isis, and whomever the Berbers worship have a few more worshippers and last longer than otl?
 

samcster94

Banned
I have question? what happens if no faith "wins" by the time the Roman Empire falls. Religio Roma continues going, the mystery cults Manichesim and Christianity are "there" at but not dominant, local gods are still worshipped, and then Roman authority in the west and perhaps in the east falls apart.

"Christian" and "Roman" were tied together as an identity in 476. But if the fate of your immortal soul is no longer tied to being "Roman" and therefore "Christian" wouldn't it be easier to shed your "Roman" identity that is obviously no longer favored by the divine? As a result isn't it easier for the Franks to pull a "Saxon" and bring Northern Gaul into a modified Germanic cultural orbit, the Berbers to forget about being Roman clients? Egyptians to assimilate a Greek upper class? As a result, Odin, Isis, and whomever the Berbers worship have a few more worshippers and last longer than otl?
Well, the modified Hellenism is the default, as that was their religion until a few decades before Christianity's ascendance(Sol Invictus actually was briefly the state religion).
 
Well, the modified Hellenism is the default, as that was their religion until a few decades before Christianity's ascendance(Sol Invictus actually was briefly the state religion).
But how does that default hold up as the Roman world dies? I suspect local gods would have an upswing.
 
Part of this is that no Constantinian Christianity means no council of Nicaea, which means there's not going to be any one dominant sect for quite some time. At the same time, yes, the early Christians faced persecutions, but persecutions from a disunited pagan state are very different than persecution from an organized monotheistic state.
 

samcster94

Banned
Part of this is that no Constantinian Christianity means no council of Nicaea, which means there's not going to be any one dominant sect for quite some time. At the same time, yes, the early Christians faced persecutions, but persecutions from a disunited pagan state are very different than persecution from an organized monotheistic state.
China in its late Tang dynasty phase is a good example. It had multiple religions practiced at the same time, and persecuted Buddhists who previously were quite favored earlier in the Tang. I am not clear why and am not an expert, but it is a good example of how a Rome that does not go Christian could work(like it flirts for a bit, but turns on it).
 

samcster94

Banned
But how does that default hold up as the Roman world dies? I suspect local gods would have an upswing.
Outside of Greece, Sicily or a few areas near Rome, other faiths will likely rule. Which ones depend on where??? Some of the stronger faiths that were around towards the end of this period, esp. Zoroastrianism(as Persia can capture parts the M.E. parts of the empire), might have some influence.
 
China in its late Tang dynasty phase is a good example. It had multiple religions practiced at the same time, and persecuted Buddhists who previously were quite favored earlier in the Tang. I am not clear why and am not an expert, but it is a good example of how a Rome that does not go Christian could work(like it flirts for a bit, but turns on it).

Again though, this depends on whether this is Rome remaining pagan or adopting a henotheistic faith, in which case it could very well end up like that, or if they pick a different monotheistic/gnostic faith like Manichaeism or a more zealous form of the Sol Invictus cult, in which case you might get something like OTL but with different names.
 
If I recall correctly a major competitor to christianity was the cult of Isis so maybe you could have Constantine making it the official state religion instead of christianity.
 
China in its late Tang dynasty phase is a good example. It had multiple religions practiced at the same time, and persecuted Buddhists who previously were quite favored earlier in the Tang. I am not clear why and am not an expert, but it is a good example of how a Rome that does not go Christian could work(like it flirts for a bit, but turns on it).
Because the monasteries have grown extraordinarily wealthy.Also,way too many people were trying to become monks or nuns--who were exempt from taxation and were largely unproductive to the state.
 
Manichaeism is the biggest competitor to Christianity in this period. St. Augustine was a convert from Manichaeism and many writings of the 4th century describe Manichaeism as a large force in parts of the empire. And it was a very universalist missionary religion that spread all the way to China in numbers even larger than Chinese Christianity.

If Constantine sees a cross with a circle around it instead we could see a Manichean Rome.
 
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