Effects of North Africa remaining Christian?

[SavoyTruffle]

Let's say for one reason or another that Islam does not expand into North Africa. What effects would this have on history?

Would North Africa remain in the Mediterranean/"European" cultural sphere?

 

[Deleted member 97083]

North Africa would probably be in the Roman sphere while the Roman sphere would be considered separate from the Germanic/Frankish/Slavic sphere.

It may depend on whether Egypt becomes Muslim though.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Didn't the loss of Egypt weaken Rhomania for centuries?

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Didn't the loss of Egypt weaken Rhomania for centuries?

In absolute terms, yes, but the Byzantine Empire holding only the Balkans and Anatolia was about equally capable at defending itself as the larger earlier empire controlling the eastern Mediterranean. Less wealth and power, concentrated in less territory so it roughly balances out.

By Roman sphere I mean Catholic Latin sphere for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, etc.

Egypt would remain Hellenistic (but not strictly Greek) if it remained Christian. Regardless, the rest of North Africa would be Romance with only some Byzantine influence (architecture mainly).

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Let's say for one reason or another that Islam does not expand into North Africa. What effects would this have on history?

Would North Africa remain in the Mediterranean/"European" cultural sphere?

I suppose European identity would be less important and be viewed as just one part of a greater Christian world that would include North Africa and presumably parts of Asia Minor.

 

[general]

Would it have much impact on trade i wonder? Remaining Christian would keep ties with the northern shore,so more trade. Also perhaps less piracy with no religious justification? Less piracy = trading somewhat cheaper as more secure?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Would it have much impact on trade i wonder? Remaining Christian would keep ties with the northern shore,so more trade. Also perhaps less piracy with no religious justification? Less piracy = trading somewhat cheaper as more secure?

Less piracy is incredibly doubtful. The Vandals being Christian didn't stop them from terrorizing the Mediterranean. The only way you are having less piracy is if a large state based elsewhere controlled North Africa-like the Byzantine Empire.

 

[general]

I take your point. The Vandals were Arian though, and to some degree a "rogue state". I do not doubt that there would be plenty of piracy, I just wondered if might be somewhat less lacking the state sanctioned religious piracy of OTL?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

I take your point. The Vandals were Arian though, and to some degree a "rogue state". I do not doubt that there would be plenty of piracy, I just wondered if might be somewhat less lacking the state sanctioned religious piracy of OTL?

Again, that depends on if a state not based out of North Africa takes control of the region. Otherwise, piracy is a clear revenue generator for any North African based state.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Effects? Quite a bit, to say the least.

North Africa would probably be in the Roman sphere while the Roman sphere would be considered separate from the Germanic/Frankish/Slavic sphere.

It may depend on whether Egypt becomes Muslim though.

Egypt would always be a separate part from North Africa, as it was in the Roman Empire and as it is perceived now to this day, since it isn't considered part of the Maghreb.

 

[Pentapolim]

Regarding piracy, it depends on whether the north africans become catholics or not. If they do, I can see them shifting to trade instead of plunder in the mediterranean. Maybe the countless coastal raids on christian nations can be at least significantly reduced too.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Regarding piracy, it depends on whether the north africans become catholics or not. If they do, I can see them shifting to trade instead of plumber in the mediterranean. Maybe the countless coastal raids on christian nations can be at least significantly reduced too.

I can see them turning pirate if Arian.

 

[Pentapolim]

I can see them turning pirate if Arian.

Perhaps, but would they estabilish the slave trade of europeans captured in raids? Arian or catholic, north africans and europeans are christians ITTL.

 

[Arkenfolm]

They aren't going to stop being pirates just because they share the same religion. After all, Christian Irishmen were good pirates, weren't they? Now, you won't have the huge "Barbary Coast" piracy, but I think many coastal communities, if given the opportunity, would support piracy. It would more just be called "privateering", at least in a later era.

Perhaps, but would they estabilish the slave trade of europeans captured in raids? Arian or catholic, north africans and europeans are christians ITTL.

I would doubt that, but the slave trade's a good point since North Africa (Maghreb) was historically the main link to the West African slave trade. I can definitely see Christian North Africans doing the same thing Muslim North Africans did and promote the slave trade OTL.

The effects of a Christian North Africa on West Africa demand their own post, though.

 

[Indicus]

While North Africa would be considered part of the Christian world, it would still be mostly-Berber outside the coasts. It would be considered a different region in its own right, as Berber languages and are quite distinct from Romance languages, and culturally, it's very different from Southern Europe.

 

[Salvador79]

I can see them shifting to trade instead of plumber in the mediterranean.

North African plumbers? I thought they were all Polish?

 

[Pentapolim]

Stupid typo hehehe

 

[Arkenfolm]

While North Africa would be considered part of the Christian world, it would still be mostly-Berber outside the coasts. It would be considered a different region in its own right, as Berber languages and are quite distinct from Romance languages, and culturally, it's very different from Southern Europe.

Yeah, it's part of Western Christendom, but will have its own distinct culture, possibly the most distinct out of all of Western Christianity due to the lighter Romanisation of the region then elsewhere. Christian North Africa would possibly be more efficient at assimilating them than the Arabs were. Support of the Berbers will be absolutely necessary for any ruler in North Africa, and probably Berbers would be the reason why the Romans are driven out of there to begin with.

I've been very tempted to draw parallels between Berber tribes in Christian North Africa and the Scottish clans.

 

[Kyro92]

Being Christian means intermarriages between North African and European royal families, which in turn means the possibility of personal unions.

 

[Arkenfolm]

North African plumbers? I thought they were all Polish?

I somehow think that if things got to the point of Western colonisation of the Americas, North Africans would fill many of the roles Italians did OTL. While it doesn't have to be that way (depends on agricultural policy of whatever North African state), the shitty land for farming in North Africa could easily result in a lot of peasants forced off their land, and a good option for them is to emigrate to the New World. North African agriculture would be better than OTL, since Arab agricultural policies were very poor and prevented the land from recovering when it needed to. But it still wouldn't be the best, and those living at the fringes would always be at risk. Droughts will be very destructive.

Basically, instead of Mario the Plumber, we get his cousin from Carthage *Mariu the Plumber.