Ok I'm fiddling around with an idea in my head at the moment and need some help. How would France developed if they find a way to reach a peace in the aftermath of the War of the Fifth Coalition in which Napoleon dies at the tail end of that war and Talleyrand is able to get the House of Bourbon restored to the throne but on French terms. In this effort he is able to get 1802 borders in Europe kept by the French Kingdom but at the cost of some colonies overseas. How would the French go about developing their nation and would they down the line become an even more industrialized nation?
Effects of French 1802 borders being kept?
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
In 1802 France had most if not all of Belgium and the West Rhineland under their control, which were good sources of the iron and coal needed for heavy industry. If the French government looked into developing these regions, they would have significantly more industrial resources than IOTL. Couple that with the avoidance of the Napoleonic wars that cost France a huge portion of their population (upwards of a million people), and you would have a France that would likely be a far stronger industrial power down the road.
Agreed. Not only would this France be larger, but it would contain within its borders the industrial resources that OTL France lacked (and lacks). Wallonia particularly would be a useful acquisition.
Much depends on France avoiding future Anglo-French wars, mind.
Much depends on France avoiding future Anglo-French wars, mind.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
... you assume the new Bourbon King is going to be able engender loyalty in those new borders and keep the French state stable and financially solvent without "war feeding war". At this point, he has ALOT of soldiers that he's going to have to demobilize, a government full of Imperial/Semi-Republicans, populations only recently conquered, and a collection of Great Powers who've seen they can push France around at the negotiating table (And, the King knows which side his bread was buttered on: he diden't seize the throne but merely picked it up). Expect accusations of being a puppet of either a "Wicked Advisor" or perfidious Albion to start rumbling through many corners of the new society.
Napoleonrules
Banned
I dont know if this is possible. France at this point doesn't have colonies worth trading really, IOTL neither Britain nor Sweden really wanted Guadaloupe and it's about all France has that's worth trading. Look at OTL and what colonies Britain kept after the Napoleonic Wars- SOME of the Dutch colonies... they didn't keep the Philippines, Indonesia, or 80% of what they conquered (probably not even 90%). This is the time between the two French Colonial Empires, after the French and Indian Wars and before the conquests in West Africa. And Britain's goal was always to have a balance of power on the Continent to keep any one power from being able to keep the British out of trading with Europe; so is Britain going to allow France to be halfway to recreating the Charlemagne Holy Roman Empire? And what happens to the Holy Roman Empire in this TL?
There are still a lot of blanks in this TL at the moment as honestly my European History of this era sucks. But Prussia still took a beating, the Holy Roman Empire is dead, and Austria hadn't been able to put it together yet.
Maybe 1802 borders are too much. How much can France keep and still get out with Nappy dead and them getting to terms on the return of the monarchy?
Maybe 1802 borders are too much. How much can France keep and still get out with Nappy dead and them getting to terms on the return of the monarchy?
If Napoleon dies like this, he goes down a great national hero, having defeated every coalition ranged against him. Whether it's Joseph, Eugène or someone else succeeding him, his régime will survive in some fashion, at least initially. I don't see how Louis XVIII takes the throne. He's an émigré who's been out of the country for almost 20 years and living in enemy nations.
If I'm reading the OP correctly, France ITTL is trading away all of its conquests beyond the 1802 borders, plus giving away some colonies (it ceded Mauritius, St. Lucia and Tobago to Britain IOTL). I know Britain has a phobia of France controlling Belgium, but that's a heck of a good peace deal for them.
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Maybe France can keep the borders from 1793 with some additionals territory gained on the west side of the Rhine?
Even if a Talleyrand-Bourbon combo picks up power and seeks the exits from war toute suite, is France holding Belgium and Rhineland too much for Britain to accept permanently, and does it lead to continuous British needling of France, until the latter is knocked down a peg?
I think the main concern for the British was French control of the port of Antwerp, presumably because they figured it would be a good base to launch an invasion. I'm not sure if the rest of the "natural borders" concerned them.
I think their fear was a little irrational (French control of Antwerp didn't mean much during the war) but I wonder if a compromise could have been made with the Netherlands gaining Antwerp in exchange for France gaining, say, Maastricht.
I don't understand why people think Britain's desire to stop France from holding the low Countries means France doesn't get it. Austria and Prussia are fine with it.
Because nothing in the world could ever possibly happen without Britain's permission, of course
Prussia is not fine with it. Even Austria is likely to not be content with leaving France as a continental superpower for very long. People take some Austrian flirting with leaving France at its "natural borders" way too generously on this board. No one has a serious vested interest in letting France keep its Rhine border.
And of course there's also the part where Britain financed 7 different coalitions against France.
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France doesn't actually need any more coal and iron - there's plenty of coal in Lille, after all. No, what France needs is stability to industrialize right.
Though, of course, both Belgium and the Rhineland are going to help, as they're some of the most industrial regions in the world.
Uh, OTL France was an importer of coal and could certainly have used more coal in their borders.
Not at all. It had more than enough for its own industrial needs. The issue was that the stability required for industrialization was not there.
No it didn't have enough, which is why France has historically been a coal importer.