Effects of capturing a battleship in combat

JSchafer

Banned
Correct me if I’m wrong but I can’t remember a battleship ever being captured in combat/surrendered without scuttling or sinking shortly. I am curious what would the effects be if a battleship was captured by an enemy force and towed back to their country in both the original owner state and the enemy state? Think Bismarck, Nelson, Yamato, Dakota etc. why were the crews otl so determined to scuttle it or fight to the last?
 
Battleships are tough, to batter one to a position it would surrender normally means its too damaged to tow anywhere safely. Its also why a lot of ships were torpedoed by their own side after battles as they could not easily be saved but could give the enemy vital information if just left as they would take time to sink ( moving a ship increases greatly issues with flooding etc.)
 
The Russian battleship Oryol was surrendered and captured on the high seas at the battle of Tsushima. So if you want to capture a battleship in combat, it has to be in the context of THE decisive naval battle of 20th century.
 
It would take some doing. As mentioned above, Oryol struck her colors and was commissioned into the IJN. If you want something more recent then that, your best bet might be some hair brained Churchill plan to remove the Tirpitz, perhaps by somehow boarding her with a battalion of Commandos.
 
It would be interesting if someone can capture a carrier perhaps via destroyers since its a lot easier compare to battleships to destroyers with their secondary guns operational.
 
With steering gear damaged by bombing, a German battleship grounds itself on allied territory, but in a very remote area--I suggest the original POD to be Northern Norway not falling, which IIRC was easily possible. The battleship is lucky, grounding lightly on only a sandbar, and the crew hopes to repair the steering gear and get it off the sandbar before the Allies come. Churchill, in his infinite wisdom, sends an attack of a battalion of commandos in the dead of night.
 
Both the Kongo & Hiei ended up adrift near Guadalcanal. Hypothetically their escorts could've been sunk or driven off by air attacks and attacks of local torpedo boats. There was not much at Guadalcanal to transport a boarding party, the torpedo boats and some landing craft & utility craft.
 
Ships are scuttled before they can be captured, especially the high prestige battleships from the interwar and WWII era. They just blow a hole in the hull or ignite the ammo. Carriers even more.
 
after the French scuttled their fleet, more planning might have gone into retaining the Italian fleet (when they inevitably switched sides)?

not sure if that would qualify as being captured?
 
It would be interesting if someone can capture a carrier perhaps via destroyers since its a lot easier compare to battleships to destroyers with their secondary guns operational.

The USS Hornet was almost captured by the Japanese after attempts to sink it by U.S. Destroyers was unsuccessful ( 9 torpedoes some of which failed to explode and over 400 5" rounds) it was finally finished off with 4 Long Lance torpedoes by Japanese destroyers. That was the closest a 'modern' major naval ship has come to being captured that I know of.
 
Aside from some insane cutting out operation capturing a BB is going to get you a ruin of a ship only good for a few propaganda photos, searching for intelligence information and breaking for scrap metal. It would be too damaged by gunfire, bombs or torpedoes for anything else.
 
Turning around the question for our military experts: suppose you have a commando of about a 100 Marines, paratroopers or commandos trained in boarding operations and you somehow have the means to land them on the deck of a military vessel. Let's say by dropping them from stealth helicopters or radar-jamming speedboats. What would be the biggest ship they could overpower? And could they realistically hope to sail it to their own fleet or would theirs just be a slash and grab mission of fetching everything that looks interesting and then blowing up the ship behind them?

Like I said, I have zero knowledge on that part starting with the most obvious question of how many men there are on a frigate versus an aircraft carrier. All I know is that in one of the comics I read in the 1980's, US Navy hotshot pilot Buck Danny with one sidekick once took over a complete Cuban frigate at least long enough to call a US helicopter to come and airlift him off to Guantanamo. (In 1980 that didn't yet have that cynical aftertaste.) Of course that was a comic book fantasy typical of it's time. 25 years later Bruce Willis would probably have taken over a nuclear submarine all by himself and another 10 years on a whole aircraft carrier with a little help from Silvester Stallone and Jet Li... But I digress....
 
In 1956 the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim el Alwal (formerly HMS Mendip) tried to shell Haifa. She surrendered after being disabled by Israeli ships and aircraft. The Israelis renamed her Haifa and kept her in service until the late 1960s.
 
In a late 1980s exercise a USN SEAL team boarded a USN amphibian via the poorly guarded stern gate/well deck. The unarmed watch stander was not much opposition. It took the team a few minutes to secure the bridge, comm space , and engine rooms.
 
Turning around the question for our military experts: suppose you have a commando of about a 100 Marines, paratroopers or commandos trained in boarding operations and you somehow have the means to land them on the deck of a military vessel. Let's say by dropping them from stealth helicopters or radar-jamming speedboats. What would be the biggest ship they could overpower? And could they realistically hope to sail it to their own fleet or would theirs just be a slash and grab mission of fetching everything that looks interesting and then blowing up the ship behind them?

Like I said, I have zero knowledge on that part starting with the most obvious question of how many men there are on a frigate versus an aircraft carrier. All I know is that in one of the comics I read in the 1980's, US Navy hotshot pilot Buck Danny with one sidekick once took over a complete Cuban frigate at least long enough to call a US helicopter to come and airlift him off to Guantanamo. (In 1980 that didn't yet have that cynical aftertaste.) Of course that was a comic book fantasy typical of it's time. 25 years later Bruce Willis would probably have taken over a nuclear submarine all by himself and another 10 years on a whole aircraft carrier with a little help from Silvester Stallone and Jet Li... But I digress....
It depends on the situation. Biggest ship would of course be a Supertanker, but those have tiny crews of civilians. Warships, if you get surprise, missile cruiser, though that is the sort of risks no one is going to take willingly, realistically a frigate or submarine. Otherwise as said an amphib is possible and usually bigger than a cruiser, though as a caveat it should be unloaded as not to fight a lot of marines, or a fleet auxiliary, also usually bigger than a cruiser but small crew

Most likely a slash and grab, though its vaguely possible they could sail the ship a short to moderate distance depending on the class of ship, surface ship only
 
Aside from some insane cutting out operation capturing a BB is going to get you a ruin of a ship only good for a few propaganda photos, searching for intelligence information and breaking for scrap metal. It would be too damaged by gunfire, bombs or torpedoes for anything else.

There is an entertaining APOD story with Tirpitz being captured.
 
Anyways best chance for this is probably an *Jutland. Have the Germans launch a major naval action as a distraction for a major offensive on land, and have the attitude present that they just have to occupy the attention of the British government, and that they can get any captured ships back at the peace table. Given that you could see surrenders rather than scuttling

Failing that a battle in the Baltic in 1917. Russians lose, somebody decides to surrender rather than scuttle for better treatment as a POW, Russian morale is shitty enough it could happen
 
Anyways best chance for this is probably an *Jutland.

Or OTL. SMS Seydlitz grounded several times on her slow return back to Port.
Last was west of Hörnum, but was able to float off at high tide and more pumping of flooded compartments.

PoD, she is stuck harder and it a race between the HSF and RN to get there first.
 
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