Effects of a surviving West Roman Empire

Apologies that I can’t add much detail to this post, as I’m in Italy right now but I’m looking for definite political, social, economic, technological, etc consequences of the West surviving the events of the 5th century. I personally like the idea of Majorian restoring and reforming the Empire.
 
I actually started to write a story around the idea of Majorian turning around the WRE from the brink. The immediate POD was him being tipped off about the vandal naval attack that destroyed his fleet. But defeating the vandals was only the first step. He would also have to overthrow the barbarian Patrician Ricimer, curb the power of the ultra-rich senators who controlled most of the income and manpower of Italy at the time and then achieve a permanent defeat of Visigoths, Svebes and Franks.

I imagined him taking the way of proto-feudalism, to better harness the resources of the empire as monetary economy was breaking down.
 
I think the main result would be that there wouldn’t be a Catholic Church, the Pope would just be Patriarch of Rome, while Germanic kingdoms would have their own separate Patriarchies. We would likely also see one or more Germanic equivalent to Slavonic.

Next result we would likely see Frankish be more dominating in Neustria I could easily see the Seine become the border between Germanic and Latin.
 
I think the main result would be that there wouldn’t be a Catholic Church, the Pope would just be Patriarch of Rome, while Germanic kingdoms would have their own separate Patriarchies. We would likely also see one or more Germanic equivalent to Slavonic.

Next result we would likely see Frankish be more dominating in Neustria I could easily see the Seine become the border between Germanic and Latin.

So are you assuming a surviving Western Empire is restricted to Italia? If it survives with restored territorial integrity, most Germanic kingdoms at the time would have to be destroyed, subdued or integrated somehow. In such a scenario the Catholic Church would probably be even stronger, as it doesn't have to operate across various borders. And by the time of Majorian the Bishop of Rome was already fairly dominant over most other bishoprics of the West. Now beyond the Roman borders the status of Christianity and the authority of the Roman Church is a big question mark, but I would assume over time a lot missionary effort will be expended. If successful any newly converted areas and kingdoms would probably integrated in the Church hierarchy in some form.
 
So are you assuming a surviving Western Empire is restricted to Italia? If it survives with restored territorial integrity, most Germanic kingdoms at the time would have to be destroyed, subdued or integrated somehow. In such a scenario the Catholic Church would probably be even stronger, as it doesn't have to operate across various borders. And by the time of Majorian the Bishop of Rome was already fairly dominant over most other bishoprics of the West. Now beyond the Roman borders the status of Christianity and the authority of the Roman Church is a big question mark, but I would assume over time a lot missionary effort will be expended. If successful any newly converted areas and kingdoms would probably integrated in the Church hierarchy in some form.

I don't think it's possible for it to survive with its territorial integrity. I think it can survive with the Italian Peninsula (and likely without the Po valley), North Africa and maybe Iberia. Changes in agriculture was moving the population center of Europe to the north, which make continued Italian control over Gaul next to impossible.

The Roman Empire's European borders build on the rest of Europe being technological inferior and living in less densely populated. The moment that isn't the case any more, the Roman Empire have to fall back to more natural borders.
 
There are lots of possible PODs throughout the 5th century, but the age is so chaotic the question is which would really make a long term difference. An interesting POD early in the century might be Flavius Stilicho not being executed in 408 as Emperor Honorius recognises he is not guilty of the charge of treason. He then goes on to defeat Alaric, or at least prevents him from sacking Rome in 410.
 
I think the main result would be that there wouldn’t be a Catholic Church, the Pope would just be Patriarch of Rome, while Germanic kingdoms would have their own separate Patriarchies. We would likely also see one or more Germanic equivalent to Slavonic.

Next result we would likely see Frankish be more dominating in Neustria I could easily see the Seine become the border between Germanic and Latin.

That is quite the assumption, a very Byzanto-Hellenic assumption at that....
 
I don't think it's possible for it to survive with its territorial integrity. I think it can survive with the Italian Peninsula (and likely without the Po valley), North Africa and maybe Iberia. Changes in agriculture was moving the population center of Europe to the north, which make continued Italian control over Gaul next to impossible.

The Roman Empire's European borders build on the rest of Europe being technological inferior and living in less densely populated. The moment that isn't the case any more, the Roman Empire have to fall back to more natural borders.

Not sure that's really complying with the idea set out by the original post, who speaks of Majorian restoring the Empire. And why would they not hold the Po valley? Natural borders don't get much more defensible than the Alps and the Alpine passes. Certainly more defensible than anything south of it.

Besides, even accepting that power would shift northwards over time, that is a slow and gradual process. By the time of Majorian southern Gaul and Italy were still vastly more wealthy and populous then northern Gaul. And why are Franks destined to control Gaul rather than the Romans? They are certainly more foreign to the area then the Romans at this point. So assuming initial successes of reestablishing control under Majorian, I could see Gallo-Roman nobility gain more and more influence over time and promote one of their own as Emperor in the mold of Avitus. That would satisfy the conditions of a northward shift in power while still conserving a Western Empire for longer than OTL.

That of course presupposes Majorian getting rid of Ricimer and potential disloyal elements in the Senate before they can backstab him, but I'm sure a suitable POD for that could be found. I think that might be enough already to let the Western Empire survive beyond the 5th century. But of course barbarian pressure will not go away easily, and the Empire more than likely wouldn't survive forever in that form.
 
The Roman Empire's European borders build on the rest of Europe being technological inferior and living in less densely populated. The moment that isn't the case any more, the Roman Empire have to fall back to more natural borders.
I could see a surviving Western Roman Empire regrouping in a way that its borders are almost identical to the Frankish Empire of Charlemagne with the addition of the rest of Italy. Alternately the Western Empire could rebuild around Italy + "Austria-Hungary" as an alternate more Latin version of the Holy Roman Empire.
 
Apologies that I can’t add much detail to this post, as I’m in Italy right now but I’m looking for definite political, social, economic, technological, etc consequences of the West surviving the events of the 5th century. I personally like the idea of Majorian restoring and reforming the Empire.
The effects would be too great to write them all down in a single post. However for me the three most important consequences of a surviving WRE would be:

stronger ties between the Latin and Greek part of the mediterranean world instead of reciprocal alienation;

a more mediterranean-centric concept of “Europe”, if it ever develops;

less push for conversion of pagans in central and eastern Europe, the emperors would find more useful to direct their resources towards those directly bordering them and those inside their empire but not yet following the official creed (Chalcedonian).
defeating the vandals was only the first step.

This would certainly help…


He would also have to overthrow the barbarian Patrician Ricimer, curb the power of the ultra-rich senators who controlled most of the income and manpower of Italy at the time

But this would only cost him the throne. Especially if by curbing you mean purge.

and then achieve a permanent defeat of Visigoths, Svebes and Franks.
Already achieved and not necessary, at least for the survival of the empire. Just avoid the fall of Narbo and the rise of an emperor not recognized by anyone outside Italy.

I imagined him taking the way of proto-feudalism, to better harness the resources of the empire as monetary economy was breaking down.
Why would such a system help the empire? Basically the emperor would just give up most of his prerogatives in favour of local dynasts.
 
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