Effects of a successful Talleyrand Plan on the Western Front in WW1

I was reading this TL yesterday: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-talleyrand-plan.69461/

So assume that Belgium is successfully partitioned among the Netherlands, France and Prussia as above and WW1 still happens as OTL, how would the Western Front develop in this TL with an enlarged German-French border? I think Germany may head East to deal with Russia first since the Schlieffen Plan is not that effective anymore. Can France break through the trenches and threaten the Rhine in this case?
 
I was reading this TL yesterday: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-talleyrand-plan.69461/

So assume that Belgium is successfully partitioned among the Netherlands, France and Prussia as above and WW1 still happens as OTL, how would the Western Front develop in this TL with an enlarged German-French border? I think Germany may head East to deal with Russia first since the Schlieffen Plan is not that effective anymore. Can France break through the trenches and threaten the Rhine in this case?
Ww1 as we know it is butterflied away
 

Deleted member 1487

Ww1 as we know it is butterflied away
This is the most likely event.


So assume that Belgium is successfully partitioned among the Netherlands, France and Prussia as above and WW1 still happens as OTL, how would the Western Front develop in this TL with an enlarged German-French border? I think Germany may head East to deal with Russia first since the Schlieffen Plan is not that effective anymore. Can France break through the trenches and threaten the Rhine in this case?
341px-Partition-plan-Talleyrand-en.svg.png


Assuming the above roughly is what happens by 1914 and WW1 still happens roughly around then, then the French have some serious problems even if they build a bunch of forts. The Franco-Prussian war if it happens likely ends with worse territorial losses for France and it might well include Walloon areas. I also don't see how Antwerp doesn't eventually join the Netherlands. Basically France is going to be in trouble in the event of war.
 
This is the most likely event.



341px-Partition-plan-Talleyrand-en.svg.png


Assuming the above roughly is what happens by 1914 and WW1 still happens roughly around then, then the French have some serious problems even if they build a bunch of forts. The Franco-Prussian war if it happens likely ends with worse territorial losses for France and it might well include Walloon areas. I also don't see how Antwerp doesn't eventually join the Netherlands. Basically France is going to be in trouble in the event of war.

I read in several other threads about this and some people believe France will be stronger with the industrial base of Walloon, which can seriously change the outcomes of TTL Franco-Prussian war or WW1. What's your opinion on this?
 

Deleted member 1487

I read in several other threads about this and some people believe France will be stronger with the industrial base of Walloon, which can seriously change the outcomes of TTL Franco-Prussian war or WW1. What's your opinion on this?
Germany will be stronger with Luxembourg, plus have a better flanking position, while Walloonia is a threatened salient. Given the speed and strength of the OTL Prussian advance, France's greater strength never became a factor because they didn't use it well and had their industry quickly overrun. If anything they might be more overconfident.
 
Germany will be stronger with Luxembourg, plus have a better flanking position, while Walloonia is a threatened salient. Given the speed and strength of the OTL Prussian advance, France's greater strength never became a factor because they didn't use it well and had their industry quickly overrun. If anything they might be more overconfident.

When you said Germany will be stronger, did you mean militarily, economically or both? Since I'm badly educated in Luxembourg's strategic values.

A little bit off topic but my aim when making this thread is to know whether I can make a relatively more powerful Netherlands after the Belgian Revolution without changing the balance of power too much so that WW1 can still happen roughly the same. By "powerful", I meant they will still be confident enough to keep the Dutch Gold Coast, colonize North Borneo and the rest of Papua New Guinea.

So what if Flanders remains with the Netherlands , Walloon and OTL Belgian Luxembourg together form TTL Belgium while Luxembourg goes to Germany? There will still be a buffer state between France and Germany but the Netherlands is still better than its OTL counterpart.
 
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Deleted member 1487

When you said Germany will be stronger, did you mean militarily, economically or both? Since I'm badly educated in Luxembourg's strategic values.
Both.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg
The steel industry exploiting the Red Lands' rich iron-ore grounds in the beginning of the 20th century drove the country's industrialisation. ArcelorMittal, the world's largest steel producer with headquarters in Luxembourg City, is still a reminder of these times. After the decline of the steel industry in the 1970s, the country focused on establishing itself as a global financial centre and developed into the banking hub it is reputed for.
In terms of military stuff it was a highly important rail and road hub.
wwi-map-of-the-position-of-the-armies-august-22-1914-in-belgium-and-ERGN3C.jpg


A little bit off topic but my aim when making this thread is to know whether I can make a relatively more powerful Netherlands after the Belgian Revolution without changing the balance of power too much so that WW1 can still happen roughly the same. By "powerful", I meant they will still be confident enough to keep the Dutch Gold Coast, colonize North Borneo and the rest of Papua New Guinea.
Sure, with the 'classic' Dutch territory plus the 'Antwerp Free State' on the map minus the French dominant areas would strengthen the Dutch while preventing the historical fracture along religious lines that created Belgium in 1830.

So what if Flanders remains with the Netherlands , Walloon and OTL Belgian Luxembourg together form TTL Belgium while Luxembourg goes to Germany? There will still be a buffer state between France and Germany but the Netherlands is still better than its OTL counterpart.
Or just stick to the Tallyrand plan and have the Flanders Dutch revolt against the Brits and ask to join the Netherlands.
 
Both.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg

In terms of military stuff it was a highly important rail and road hub.


Sure, with the 'classic' Dutch territory plus the 'Antwerp Free State' on the map minus the French dominant areas would strengthen the Dutch while preventing the historical fracture along religious lines that created Belgium in 1830.


Or just stick to the Tallyrand plan and have the Flanders Dutch revolt against the Brits and ask to join the Netherlands.

Thanks a lot, that sure helps! :D
 
Pardon me @wiking I would like to ask a little more about the subject.

What would France do to prepare for the upcoming WW1 if they were badly beaten during TTL Franco-Prussian War with such a border?

Moreover, between Walloon and Alsace, which region should Germany take as war spoils? I think having the Meuse river as the border is pretty good for the Germans already since they can always threaten the French at such outflanking angle (I suppose?). The Walloon is also mostly Catholics so the Germans wouldn't want to take it. IMO Taking Alsace-Lorraine as OTL in 1871 and then Longwy-Briey-Thionville triangle after the Great War should be better.
 
The Congo certainly isn't becoming Antwerpian in this world.

So, is what we know as the Congo partly French, Portuguese, British and German? No huge colony, but extensions of existing ones - this would then give Germany more land, but also more borders, to be defending in Africa.

Does this have any other effect than to change the battlefield of Africa in this WW1? I know there would be no 'Heart of Darkness' but exploitation and maybe greater mining as opposed to plant-related monies might occur. Would Germany more greatly fortify and build up Dars-es-Salaam in this case? Would it be longer-term defensible, would they station armoured cruisers there? Would this need for more armoured cruisers have a knock-on effect either reducing the battlecruiser programme, or if taken in extra funds, perhaps as part of a colonial armed forces bill reduce something army-related at home expenditure-wise?
 
Ww1 as we know it is butterflied away

The Schlieffen Plan certainly is. Its whole purpose was to take a detour round the French fortifications on her German border. But TTL these presumably extend all the way to the Dutch frontier, so there isn't really any way round. There will have to be a very different Plan.
 
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The Schlieffen Plan certainly is. Its whole purpose was to take a detour round the French fortifications on her German border. But TTL these presumably extend all the way to the Dutch frontier, so there isn't really ant way round. There will have to be a very different Plan.

I wonder about that as well. With such a long border, the French can't really defense it well. Could the Germans be even more determined to knock France out of the war before shifting their forces East?
 
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