Effects of a Mongol Empire colony in Hungary

[Deleted member 97083]

If the Mongols had conquered Hungary thoroughly, and settled Cumans, Tatars, and Mongols in the former kingdom, establishing a new khanate which was able to survive and eventually Christianize into a kingdom, then what would the effects be on medieval Europe?

 

[Avrorrange]

If the Mongols had conquered Hungary thoroughly, and settled Cumans, Tatars, and Mongols in the former kingdom, establishing a new khanate which was able to survive and eventually Christianize into a kingdom, then what would the effects be on medieval Europe?

Would be more fun if it's Buddhist or Muslim.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Would be more fun if it's Buddhist or Muslim.

While the pre-Hungarian Magyars could get away with raiding into Italy and Spain, there was no concept of a Crusade back then, and European castles weren't as advanced as in the 1200s.

Would a Muslim or Buddhist khanate in Hungary be able to survive so close to the crusading Holy Roman Empire? I assume they would have to destroy or puppetize the Holy Roman Empire to secure their borders.

 

[Monter]

What happened to Poland and Austria-Bohemia? What happened to the Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians, etc in Hungary?

Thing is Mongol-Hungary is simply too easy of a prey for whoever is around it (Rudolph of Habsburg already had his own designs for it) and the Carpathian basin is too remote from the Mongol powerbase.

But let's handwave this, the basic: no one will like the mongols there, Whoever Khan that rules it will have to play smart and not let himself get crusaded, have some Hungarian lord submit to the hordes and assimilate, those would help the khan in fitting himself in the European setting, since I don't see this... Cumongaria having the bulk of Mongol military it will need an Alliance, probably with the Habsburgs, to survive for a while, which means almost immediate conversion.

For effects in Europe as whole... too many, the Arpads intermarried a lot with Poland and the balkan principalities, also let's not forget the Angevin golden era in the 14th century, this new realm will create a large vacuum, as it will need time to establish itself. I know absolutely nothing about the Balkans at the time so I'll abstain.

Hope I helped with some insight, my knowledge of the Mongols operations in Europe is kinda... lacking.

 

[Avrorrange]

While the pre-Hungarian Magyars could get away with raiding into Italy and Spain, there was no concept of a Crusade back then, and European castles weren't as advanced as in the 1200s.

Would a Muslim or Buddhist khanate in Hungary be able to survive so close to the crusading Holy Roman Empire? I assume they would have to destroy or puppetize the Holy Roman Empire to secure their borders.

The Ottomans did.I would assume that the Mongols won't just stop at Hungary and will secure places like the Balkans as well.

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

A non-Christian Carpathian Tartary would be really interesting, but I think that a Turco-Mongol Christian Hungary would simply be very similar to Hungary OTL.

 

[Max Sinister]

What happened to the Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians, etc in Hungary?

Even IOTL, Hungary lost half its population.

 

[Malta]

Well, one of the aims of the original invasion of Hungary was to capture the Hungarian King so they could do what they have always done: Make themselves a puppet and make use of the locals.

I did a short TL over the immediate aftermath of a successful invasion of Hungary would look like. Their opening moves would see Poland humbled and with Byzantine ransom money buying up the loyalty of Balkan petty lords and mercenaries to make attacks into Italy and Germany.

 

[Vuru]

They're eternally trapped there and assimilate

They can't do much, It's surrounded by mountains so they either radically change their tactics or stay where they are

 

[Avrorrange]

They're eternally trapped there and assimilate

They can't do much, It's surrounded by mountains so they either radically change their tactics or stay where they are

A large part of Hungary situates on a plain.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The Mongols have a brief moment of harassing the Europeans, eventually knocked out by someone who's eventually sick of their raids and are forced to Christianize and adopt a sedentary lifestyle to preserve their land from becoming a target by crusading Europeans. The Euro-Tartars eventually intermarry and become no different than the people they displaced. If they retain use of the Mongolian language, they'll become a cultural oddity, much again like the Hungarians.

 

[Malta]

The Mongols have a brief moment of harassing the Europeans, eventually knocked out by someone who's eventually sick of their raids and are forced to Christianize and adopt a sedentary lifestyle to preserve their land from becoming a target by crusading Europeans. The Euro-Tartars eventually intermarry and become no different than the people they displaced. If they retain use of the Mongolian language, they'll become a cultural oddity, much again like the Hungarians.

Hmm, I don't know being forced into a sedentary lifestyle doesn't necessarily have to go hand in hand with Christianize. Given the characterization of the Pannonia Plain I think they would be very able to destroy any force that comes into the region. Especially if they do destroy any castles on their borders. Sure maybe a few wooden style forts that aren't terribly bad to destroy (they are more built as a delay rather than actually stopping any enemy force so the Mongols can gather their forces and they aren't hard for the Mongols to then recapture). Once the more sedentary invaders get into the plains they realize there aren't any castles they can't take and hold to knock out the Mongols who instead are able to run circles around the invaders to the point of destroying them.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The Mongols have a brief moment of harassing the Europeans, eventually knocked out by someone who's eventually sick of their raids and are forced to Christianize and adopt a sedentary lifestyle to preserve their land from becoming a target by crusading Europeans. The Euro-Tartars eventually intermarry and become no different than the people they displaced. If they retain use of the Mongolian language, they'll become a cultural oddity, much again like the Hungarians.

The language of this Euro-Mongol state could be Cuman. I mean, it was already spoken in parts of Hungary pre-Mongol invasion.

Or maybe they'll just invite in a bunch of Germans to settle the place and the Germans in Transylvania are connected with the Germans in Austria, albeit with a sea of Magyar, Turkic, and maybe even Mongol in between the growing language islands. The mountainous areas will still have plenty of Slavs.

 

[Jürgen]

Interesting idea, so let's start with what's necessary for Mongolian colony in Hungary. The local population need to be depopulated, if not we will just see a short lived khanate which collapse fast and Hungary rising again. With this depopulation the Hungarians mostly assimilate into the post-Mongolian culture where Turkic or Mongolian in nature. We will likely see a surviving remnant population of Hungarians (I suggest in Transsylvania).

So now we have mostly empty pagan or Muslim country in the middle of Europe, whose miltary strength will lessen as cavalry becomes less important, and who are mostly unlike to be able to uphold their cavalry tradition, who border a large neighbour to the west, with a tradition of conquer and settling less populated land where the population don't share their faith.

So I expect the long term effect of this Mongolian conquest and setting up a colony will be that the Pannovian plains end up mostly German speaking and part of the HRE. Of course we will likely see remnant of the Mongolian or Turkish settlers survive, but they will likely end up much like the Sorbians.

 

[Tibi088]

Hungarian plain is not suited for nomadic lifestyle in the long run. So I assume they will be at least semisettled after a century or even earlier. They either become christian europeans or are conquered. I mostly agree with Jürgen.

It would be interesting if they are muslims and could last long enough for the Ottomans to arrive as a natural ally.

 

[Avrorrange]

Interesting idea, so let's start with what's necessary for Mongolian colony in Hungary. The local population need to be depopulated, if not we will just see a short lived khanate which collapse fast and Hungary rising again. With this depopulation the Hungarians mostly assimilate into the post-Mongolian culture where Turkic or Mongolian in nature. We will likely see a surviving remnant population of Hungarians (I suggest in Transsylvania).

So now we have mostly empty pagan or Muslim country in the middle of Europe, whose miltary strength will lessen as cavalry becomes less important, and who are mostly unlike to be able to uphold their cavalry tradition, who border a large neighbour to the west, with a tradition of conquer and settling less populated land where the population don't share their faith.

So I expect the long term effect of this Mongolian conquest and setting up a colony will be that the Pannovian plains end up mostly German speaking and part of the HRE. Of course we will likely see remnant of the Mongolian or Turkish settlers survive, but they will likely end up much like the Sorbians.

You have no trouble getting the Mongols to depopulate a region......It also depends whether this Mongol horde takeover other places in the Balkans.

There's also the possibility of Mongol style Ottomans--that is the nomads converting the sedentary population to their culture instead and form some sort of hybrid culture.