Effects of a Failed Communist Revolution In America

Just a general musing...

So, I was rereading Thande's Look to the West the other day, aand I saw something that caught my eye. He said that one of the interesting things that he was doing with LTTW was taking the old "Britain Falls to Sealion and London is burned to the ground" cliche and slightly inverting it to "Britain suffers Sealion, London is burned to the ground, but the invasion is eventually defeated." The ramifications of such an event are, in fact, more interesting than those of the tired old cliche.

So, being a Pragmatic Yank, I took the Good Briton's idea and applied it to America.

Lets take a scenario similar to Jello Biafra's great "Reds: A Revolutionary Timeline." McKinley lives, Socialism grows more and more popular, the Great War leaves a bunch of radicalized soldiers, etc. The federal government deveops into a semi-democratic oligarchy with heavy doses of Parliamentarianism. The people slowly get fed up.

But lets diverge-lets make Socialism a little less popular, a little less universal. Then, along comes some minor crisis (not an attempted military coup, as in Reds), and when taken in the backdrop of a slightly better Great Depression, there are Socialist Revolutionaries on the streets in no time. But in this TL, they do worse, the Loyalists rally, and the rebellion, though at its height occupying 40% of the country, is put down. This all happens in the mid-30s

But- what happens next? The economy is still chugging along. But the newly reformed government is torn-it owes the utraconservatives a lot for their role in putting down the rebellion, but Socialism is still very strong, and a harsh crackdown could easily spark another revolution. So, what does the government do? And what are the effects (long and short term) on American soociety and culture?
 
Any takers? (Sorry for bumping this, but I think its a pretty interesting idea, and I don't want it to be buried.)
 

Teleology

Banned
The delayed birth of the Progressive movement as a legitimate/mainstream opposition to the Ultras, maybe? They might be even more technocratic than OTL, wanting to be seen as people trying to solve society's problems in a scientific way and not as socialists trying to redistribute the wealth.
 
The Soviet Union is still out there, right? That's crucial to determining what happens next. I'll assume the Russian Civil War happened as per OTL.

Which people rebelled in the US? What regions? Was it miners more than industrial workers? If its a socialist rebellion there will probably be a strong immigrant component, with Finns and Jews strongly overrepresented, and Germans less strongly overrepresented.

I don't think socialism will be very strong at all after an unsuccessful rebellion. Suddenly, socialist ideas will become much less fashionable in the upper class. People will lose their citizenship and get exiled (happened to Emma Goldman OTL). J. Edgar Hoover will run a lot of things.
The civil rights movement is going to be.... different. Unpredictably.
 

balom

Banned
But in this TL, they do worse, the Loyalists rally, and the rebellion, though at its height occupying 40% of the country, is put down. This all happens in the mid-30s


The new government will be able to to anything it wants. Any form of protest or inkling of rebellion will be a one way ticket to the concentration camps. Such a uprising would virtually guarantee the rise of a authoritarian right wing , if not outright fascist government. I see the US siding with the Axis vs the USSR to be a distinct possibility in such a scenario.
 
The delayed birth of the Progressive movement as a legitimate/mainstream opposition to the Ultras, maybe? They might be even more technocratic than OTL, wanting to be seen as people trying to solve society's problems in a scientific way and not as socialists trying to redistribute the wealth.

That might be interesting to see...*Ponders*

The Soviet Union is still out there, right? That's crucial to determining what happens next. I'll assume the Russian Civil War happened as per OTL.

Yeah, the RCW and WW1 go largely as per OTL.

Which people rebelled in the US? What regions? Was it miners more than industrial workers? If its a socialist rebellion there will probably be a strong immigrant component, with Finns and Jews strongly overrepresented, and Germans less strongly overrepresented.

The rebellion was, ironically, truly Marxist-beginning and drawing most of its support from the lower classes, with nothing more than sympathy from the middle class and contempt from the upper class. This led to them largely lacking cohesion-the Supreme Soviet in Chicago, due to distance, loyalists, and the fractiousness of the rebels, never held anything more then nominal control over most of the lesser Soviets. The rebellion, in turn, was concentrated in the more industrial and/or liberal parts of the country-the Rust Belt and Midwest, the West Coast, New England, and parts of the West. The 40% was really a half-arsed figure that was about what I imagined the rebellion (at its height, mind) getting. And yes, immigrants played a big role.

I don't think socialism will be very strong at all after an unsuccessful rebellion. Suddenly, socialist ideas will become much less fashionable in the upper class. People will lose their citizenship and get exiled (happened to Emma Goldman OTL). J. Edgar Hoover will run a lot of things. The civil rights movement is going to be.... different. Unpredictably.

Maybe, but, as said above, the whole rebellion thing never gained momentum among the upper classes. The middle class, probably, will lose their taste for socialism, but there are still a lot of workers who either were common soldiers in the rebellion (far to many to kill them all) or who never joined the rebellion but feel no love for the central government. Plus there all still waiting for food..from bombed out farmland, or looking for jobs that are stil elusive from the war and Great Depresion. Not to mention the large amounts of soldiers that they have to demobilize.

The new government will be able to to anything it wants. Any form of protest or inkling of rebellion will be a one way ticket to the concentration camps. Such a uprising would virtually guarantee the rise of a authoritarian right wing , if not outright fascist government. I see the US siding with the Axis vs the USSR to be a distinct possibility in such a scenario.

See above. But yeah, while I think democracy woud win out in the end, the U.S would be...unpleasant, while Civil Rights' activists will have to have pretty darn good anti-communist credentials.
 

Teleology

Banned
Sounds like your failed revolution is more similar to the uprising in War of the Classes: A Gilded Age Timeline than to the revolution in Reds. A loose alliance of communes, a true class war; whereas in Reds it was more of a straight-up civil war with the elected but unrecognized government getting a portion of existing national resources (military, state/local governments, etc.) to fight under their unified chain of command.
 
Sounds like your failed revolution is more similar to the uprising in War of the Classes: A Gilded Age Timeline than to the revolution in Reds. A loose alliance of communes, a true class war; whereas in Reds it was more of a straight-up civil war with the elected but unrecognized government getting a portion of existing national resources (military, state/local governments, etc.) to fight under their unified chain of command.

Is that what WotC is about? I've never read it. Great minds, I guess.

But yeah, I'm thinking something like your above description occuring in the 1930s, with the communes rising up and gaining initial victories, but failing due to a lack of organization, unity, middle class support, and a good cacus belli (so they were launching an (mostly) unprovoked attack on a (semi-) democratic government).

But back on the original topic: what do you thnk would be the long-term impact on American society, culture and politics?
 
The US would stay neutral, should WW2 still occure, at the very least they wouldn´t side with the Soviet-Union.

Yeah, that would be an unfortunate aspect of such a TL-the whole "Bolsheviks! KILL KILL KILL KILL" thing would go over a lot more easily in the U.S-there may even be an alliance with the Nazis.

Any other comments?
 
labor unions would not be as powerful...maybe even outlawed if they played too big a role on the communist side.

Also if immigrants played a big part in the uprising you could probably be certain that immigration would be cut off or heavily curtailed. For example if you see large numbers of Jews on the communist side you may well see a jewish exclusion act similar to what was imposed on the chinese.

Also those areas of the country that were the centers of the revolt would loose most of their political clout. Imagine a reversed reconstruction with a reconquered new england being garrisoned with troops from a loyalist south.
 
labor unions would not be as powerful...maybe even outlawed if they played too big a role on the communist side.

Also if immigrants played a big part in the uprising you could probably be certain that immigration would be cut off or heavily curtailed. For example if you see large numbers of Jews on the communist side you may well see a jewish exclusion act similar to what was imposed on the chinese.

Also those areas of the country that were the centers of the revolt would loose most of their political clout. Imagine a reversed reconstruction with a reconquered new england being garrisoned with troops from a loyalist south.

Yeah, the rebellion would probably have the support of the labor unions, so they would have a bad time of it. So will the immigrants, probably. And New England.

The more I consider this scenario, the more I feel that I was possesed by the spirit of J. Edgar Hoover.
 
Yeah, the rebellion would probably have the support of the labor unions, so they would have a bad time of it. So will the immigrants, probably. And New England.

Also the upper midwest and parts of the great lakes, although I don't think all of the midwest would go for the commies. States like Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Illinois would most certainly be split along factional lines.

The historical ironies would be delicious though. Imagine the pay back factor of units from Georgia doing a scorched earth march through new england returning the favors of their great grand parents time. "Mr. President I would like pr present the city of Boston as christmas present to the United States"
 
I don't think socialism will be very strong at all after an unsuccessful rebellion. Suddenly, socialist ideas will become much less fashionable in the upper class. People will lose their citizenship and get exiled (happened to Emma Goldman OTL). J. Edgar Hoover will run a lot of things.
The civil rights movement is going to be.... different. Unpredictably.

Depending on how far some of the upper class families went in their support for the uprising you could see a lot of famous families being striped of their wealth, perhaps even destroyed if enough of the younger generation were killed.

Another thing you might see is a large american ex-pat community made up of folks from the loosing side forming in places like Canada, Mexico, France, USSR.
 
Overall you would probably see a lot more open anti-semitism in American society. The closet example from out time line would be Interwar germany where where the prominence of Jews in the Red uprising at the end of WW1 led to all Jews being seen as disloyal are a result.

As a result of this the civil rights movement may take a serious hit as well. It would depend on how the African American Population comes down. If they stay loyal or stay neutral they might not loose much. If they side with the commies they are screwed.

In OTL it was a coalition of African Americans and Jewish activists that helped drive the civil rights movement. With half of that alliance out of action then the things will progress much slower.
 
Another aspect to view might be the impact on higher education. If college campuses were centers of the revolt then societies willingness to put up with youthful rebellion might be reduced. For example the professors might have to face more review as to what they are teaching. For example the concept of tenior might be right out.
 
Interesting Snip
All good points-America would probably be a lot more nasty with the revolution. Unfortunately, college students and Jews (in my hypothtical) played a big role in the rebellion, while the breakdown of order saw a lot of blacks (communist or not) make a run for it while the Southern Democrats remained loyal, which would probably put Civil Rights back a looooooooooooooong time.
 
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