Effects of a Christian Mauro-Roman North Africa?

So, with massive changes to Northwest African/Western Mediterranean/Iberian history ... who discovers America? And when? Does this scenario speed things up compared to OTL, or slow them down?
 
However, based upon my understanding of the Visigothic military system based on readings from Kennedy and Collins, the support of many Visigothic nobles in the Senate for Roderic and the fact that he seems to have died with the only real organised military resistance in Hispania, I'd certainly say that Roderic may have been supported by a significant element of the army, if not the army in its entirety, which in itself was the only real military force worth mentioning in Visigothic Hispania prior to the Islamic invasion. That in itself gives him an advantage over the other claimants.

The Visigoths had a Senate? I must know more. Any sources you'd recommend, besides the ones mentioned in your comment?
 
The Visigoths had a Senate? I must know more. Any sources you'd recommend, besides the ones mentioned in your comment?
In terms of Primary Sources?

Beyond the use of the word 'Senate' and the fact that the Visigoths had an elective monarchy, we know very little about the specifics of Visigothic governance and politics. They left very little behind to say anything for themselves about how they lived.

So far as I know the Mozarabic Chronicle of 754 is the best and only reliable account we've got of the circumstances of the Conquest. The Islamic chronicles like Ibn Al-Quitiyya and 'Abd-al Hakam were previously seen as more precise, but that very precision and the general lack of evidence otherwise for it has seen them fall out of favour.

With regards to clawing out what knowledge we can from the little we have, I'd certainly recommend any of Roger Collins' work about Visigothic Spain or the Islamic Conquests.
 
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So, with massive changes to Northwest African/Western Mediterranean/Iberian history ... who discovers America? And when? Does this scenario speed things up compared to OTL, or slow them down?
Mauretania (as in a state in modern Morocco, since I think there's been some confusion in this thread with Roman Mauretania of which the majority and most wealthy parts were in modern they could have reasons to want to bypass the trans-Sahara trade. Imagine a state like Sijilmasa causing grief with merchants from Mauretania, and any military expedition fails because of the topography (mountains and desert). Combined with new ship designs and long-term knowledge of sailing in the area (coastal Mauretania will be similar to Portugal in that regard) plus no doubt continuing Mauretanian interference in the Canaries (they could be like a later developing Ireland or maybe an insular Finland to Mauretania), Mauretanians will have both the need and the ability to sail around Africa and basically recreate the Portuguese explorations in the region, which as we recall, includes Brazil. So there's a real potential for Mauretania to be super-Portugal when it comes to the Age of Exploration, but also a potential for that to be neglected (until it comes time to compete with the Iberians of course) because the situation with the trans-Sahara trade is good and the king doesn't want to deal with explorers proposing alternatives (waste of royal funds and pisses off merchants/clans/cities benefitting from it, i.e. a friendly Sijilmasa).

Since Mauretania can easily dominate much of Africa and South America, it could redirect the Iberians at North America and the Caribbean to a much greater degree.

I don't think other North African states would be too involved. They have to go through Gibraltar/Calpe and have the trans-Sahara trade anyway, plus issues with Italian states (imagine the archbishop in Carthage getting a promotion to Patriarch--IMO possible depending on how politics go--and clashing with the Pope--religious Punic Wars anyone?), Muslim Egypt, and possibly Mauretania.

Lastly, enjoy the Berber wank this entails, since I could easily see Mauretanian Brazil, southern Africa, and Australia, plus Berber as a lingua franca in much of Africa, and that's before getting into any creole languages or the effects of an alt-Scramble. That's up to 500 million Berber speakers assuming present day population trends.
 

OTL much of the army betrayed Rodric and he was killed in battle against Tariq. ITTL, he is fighting another Visigothic lord (maybe even Berber mercenaries). Would a similar situation occur?

So, with massive changes to Northwest African/Western Mediterranean/Iberian history ... who discovers America? And when? Does this scenario speed things up compared to OTL, or slow them down?

My gut says that trade in the Atlantic will increase with Christian Berbers in Morocco trading with the British Isles and within the North Sea. Maybe this increased importance of the North Sea allows a Vinland colony to survive sparking a colonization of the new world 400 years before OTL. I can imagine young nobles wanting easy land moving west to seize territories against peoples who have little ability to hold them back. Say news that of their 'demon gods' and 'scalping rituals' reach Europe making Christendom think there is a continent of devil worshippers waiting to be cleansed by the followers of Christ. I'm not sure if Mesoamericans at the time practised human sacrifice but if they did, that would cause massive uproar in the Old World. Heck, maybe the Berbers will discover the New World first by ending up in Brazil.


I like the idea of a maritime Morocco and an annoying Sijilmasa though it is likely Morocco would crush the merchants of Sijilmasa or maybe the merchants/nomads of Sijilmasa will conquer Morocco.

In regards to colonization, Morocco would be a powerhouse. Imagine the population of a civilized Morocco which would be even larger if they conquer the Maghreb like the Almohads and Almoravids did OTL.
 
My gut says that trade in the Atlantic will increase with Christian Berbers in Morocco trading with the British Isles and within the North Sea.
Sure, as an analog to the Anglo-Portuguese trade, but I can't see too much extra. It's a long way from Anfa or whatever port to England or Scandinavia.

Maybe this increased importance of the North Sea allows a Vinland colony to survive sparking a colonization of the new world 400 years before OTL.
The opposite actually I think, since one key good Mauretania will move is ivory from sub-Saharan Africa. Ivory--walrus ivory--was a key export of Greenland. This takes away a key export of Greenland, thus leaving it as a bunch of marginal land for people not wanted in Iceland. IOTL ivory prices in Northern Europe had quite an effect on the health of the Greenland settlements, so if we have easier access in Northern Europe to Mauretanian trade goods like elephant ivory, then we have low ivory prices and thus an even more marginal Greenland and with it, fewer voyages to Vinland for wood.

Heck, maybe the Berbers will discover the New World first by ending up in Brazil.

Highly likely. And don't forget a potential Berber version of Corte-Real in addition to a Berber Cabral. Mauretanian fishermen could easily be active around Newfoundland much as the Basques and Portuguese were.

I like the idea of a maritime Morocco and an annoying Sijilmasa though it is likely Morocco would crush the merchants of Sijilmasa or maybe the merchants/nomads of Sijilmasa will conquer Morocco.

The latter is more likely than the former, since Berber confederations OTL played a role in overthrowing various dynasties in the region. The former is possible, but it's a difficult challenge given the terrain and the background of the soldiers (some peasant farmers from the coast versus desert and mountain nomads in the desert and mountains?).

In regards to colonization, Morocco would be a powerhouse. Imagine the population of a civilized Morocco which would be even larger if they conquer the Maghreb like the Almohads and Almoravids did OTL.
True, but that would make them rather land-focused and perhaps repeating the same mistakes of the Spanish Empire with all that colonial wealth draining away to fight endless wars. A Mauretania which goes this route could be like Spain (or the Almohads for that matter)--staunchly religious and intolerant. You could imagine the Pope taking a liking to how they might deal with uppity rivals in the Carthage-based state. Although taking Carthage would require a lot of warships for logistics and combat with the no doubt substantial fleet they have for protecting against Egypt and projecting power into Italy, and that isn't considering the geopolitical issue of taking down a key rival to the Pope like that.

Definitely a lot of interesting geopolitical ramifications here.
 
@metalinvader665 You raise lots of good points. In regards to the ivory trade, I assume Greenland might still be able to be profitable for the ivory trade as the ivory from Africa would be travelling vast distances and thus I presume to still be quite costly. In regards to Morocco, I think a powerful king could easily shift the attention from land to the sea as Morocco is an easily defensible position so they could decide to not focus on expansion within the Maghreb, however, I do find this unlikely.
 
@metalinvader665 You raise lots of good points. In regards to the ivory trade, I assume Greenland might still be able to be profitable for the ivory trade as the ivory from Africa would be travelling vast distances and thus I presume to still be quite costly.

Walrus ivory is produced in smaller amounts (never was a lot of Greenlanders) and has to cross the stormy North Atlantic. Elephant ivory does have to cross the Sahara, but there's precendent for that trade which will increase since camels will become widespread in North Africa thanks to the Arabs. To export to Britain or Scandinavia, a ship only needs to hug the coast. The economics are much worse than the advantage walrus ivory had OTL.

In regards to Morocco, I think a powerful king could easily shift the attention from land to the sea as Morocco is an easily defensible position so they could decide to not focus on expansion within the Maghreb, however, I do find this unlikely.
Perhaps, but at sea there's the issue of the Canaries. As Mauretania develops, it's likely the Canaries are brought into the range of African civilisation earlier than OTL. They could be a lot like Ireland, and subsist on piracy of the Mauretanian coast. They're an obvious target for expansion, basically Mauretania's "Ireland" so to speak. But yes, there's the obvious dichotomy between choosing to support land expansion--east toward Numidia or south toward the Niger--or sea expansion--the Canaries, the Atlantic, Africa, etc. The sea has less geopolitical implications, since the Iberians are less likely to care about invading the Canaries than an attack on Numidia. Or an attack on Iberia, since controlling the Straits by ruling Baetica (separated by mountain ranges from the rest of Iberia) would be a goal of a powerful Mauretanian king.

I should add there's the ever-present issue of the Berber clans and confederations of the mountains, which is a topic worth noting in any discussion of an alt-North Africa. I've made a comparison between Christian Mauretania's issues with these Berbers and the clans of the Scottish Highlands and their impact there, and the Cossacks in Poland-Lithuania and Russia are also a relevant example. These Berbers live at the fringe of society and represent a source of support--or opposition--to the ruling class in the lowlands along the coast (who control the key agricultural lands as well as access to foreign trade). OTL, there was the makhzen ("warehouse") which was the elite of society--including clan chiefs and their followers--bought off by the rulers of Morocco, and the siba, anarchic mountain/desert regions governed by local communities on the basis of religion. These communities would accept the spiritual authority of the Moroccan sultan, but their main spiritual influence was local saints, and they would not accept the control of the makhzen (although if the right deal existed they might). I think there's an obvious basis for an alternate version of this system in Christian Mauretania (note that a similar system is found elsewhere in the Maghreb OTL)--even OTL the roots of this system can be found in how Carthage and the Romans dealt with the Berbers.

That will likely be how internal politics in not just Mauretania, but "Numidia" (centered around Icosium/Algiers or Cherchell/Caesarea) and "Africa" (centered around Carthage) and any other North African state will evolve. Africa has the easiest route to weakening this system--the Archbishop of Carthage has such religious influence and the coast is so rich and populous that its ruler can suppress the anarchic fringes and centralise. Now, we don't know how North Africa would evolve--I can't think of any European equivalent of rich port cities and tribal hinterlands, and we should remember that OTL Morocco will be an utter fringe for a few centuries until Christianisation and full integration into the region takes hold, and I can't help but think linguistic/cultural differences (the northern extremity near Tingis and Lixus will speak a Romance language akin to that of Baetica across the Straits, unlike the Berber speakers of the Rif and southern parts) will play a part in how the country evolves in relation to the rest of the area.
 
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